Preamble

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]

DEATH OF A MEMBER.

Mr. Speaker: made the following communication to the House:
I regret to have to inform the House of the death of the Right Hon. Arthur Neville Chamberlain, late Member for the Borough of Birmingham (Edgbaston Division), and desire to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

AYR BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.

Considered; to be read the Third time upon the next Sitting day.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF SHIPPING.

SEAMEN'S ADVANCE NOTES.

Mr. Denville: asked the Minister of Shipping whether he will consider an arrangement for seamen to negotiate at local banks their advance notes?

The Minister of Shipping (Mr. Cross): An advance note is the means by which a seaman is enabled to obtain an advance of wages for the benefit of his family. Its validity is dependent upon the seaman going to sea in pursuance of his agreement, and it is therefore usually made payable two or three days after the vessel sails. It is not, accordingly, a negotiable instrument and could not properly be made so.

LOSS OF EFFECTS (COMPENSATION).

Mr. Denville: asked the Minister of Shipping whether he will consider enabling a seaman, who has lost his kit owing to enemy action, to obtain the £6 or £7 necessary to replace it immediately, instead of promising it when the war is over?

Mr. Cross: Present arrangements provide for the payment of compensation for loss of effects by enemy action, immediately on the presentation of the claim by the Merchant Navy officer or seaman at a Mercantile Marine Office, in all cases where the claim amounts to less than £15. In the case of larger claims, the first £15 is paid immediately and the balance within a few days.

COAL FREIGHT RATES, SCOTTISH PORTS.

Mr. Shinwell: asked the Minister of Shipping whether he is aware that the Ministry of Shipping have recently issued a schedule of rates of freight to various Scottish ports from the Firth of Forth and the North-east coast of England, and in some instances the difference between the rates for these two ports amounts to as much as 7s. 3d. per ton in favour of the Firth of Forth; that this will have a crippling effect on the Durham coal trade, already suffering very severely from the loss of its export markets; and whether he will take steps to have the schedule cancelled or amended, with a view to fair play being given all round?

Mr. Cross: The controlled rates of freight for coal cargoes to East coast Scottish ports are based on the costs of carriage between the various ports concerned, and are properly higher for the longer voyages from the Tyne than for the shorter voyages from the Firth of Forth. The rates have recently been revised to meet increased costs, and the same proportional increase has been applied to all voyages. The difference in the rates for the size of ship normally employed in the trade is 4s. 3d. and not 7s. 3d. per ton, the latter rate applying only to vessels under 350 tons. I recognise the importance to the Durham coal trade of keeping sea transport costs as low as possible, but I cannot agree that the operation of the schedule will have the serious effect on that trade suggested by the hon. Member.

Mr. Shinwell: Before
this new schedule was introduced did the Minister consult the interests concerned, namely, the Durham coal trade, and further, is he aware that the differential rates will exact an increased penalty on the Durham coal industry, which is already suffering adversely from the loss of export markets?

Mr. Cross: With regard to the first part of the Question, as I have already stated,


these increases are based on costs and on nothing else. Therefore, I think it most improbable that the interests whose goods are being carried would be consulted as to whether or not the rates should be increased.

Mr. Shinwell: Before putting this schedule into operation, will the Minister consult the interests concerned? Is he aware that representations have been made by the Durham coal industry?

Mr. Cross: I will certainly look into the point which the hon. Member has raised, although I could not give the undertaking for which he has asked. I should think that the hon. Member is very much exaggerating the effect that this arrangement is likely to have on the Durham coal trade as it is only a small proportion of its export trade which goes to the Scottish ports.

Oral Answers to Questions — ECONOMIC WARFARE.

MR. FRANCIS RODD.

Mr. Silverman: asked the Minister of Economic Warfare when, and why, Mr. Francis Rodd was entrusted with duties by his Ministry in connection with Spain and African affairs?

The Minister of Economic Warfare (Mr. Dalton): Mr. Rodd resigned from the Ministry of Economic Warfare on 3rd June, in order to take up a commission in the Army. He was never entrusted by me with any duties in connection either with Spanish or African affairs.

GERMAN WAR EFFORT.

Mr. Silverman: asked the Minister of Economic Warfare whether any estimate has been made of the German war efforts; and the amount of loot gained at Dunkirk and France, and in the countries occupied by Germany?

Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir. It is one of the duties of my Ministry to keep the German war effort, as well as the conditions of German industry, under constant review, and estimates of the German economic war potential are regularly made. In arriving at such estimates due regard is had to the loot gained at Dunkirk and elsewhere and to the resources of occupied territories now available to Germany.

Mr. Silverman: Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the survey re-

cently published by several experts, which seems to suggest that our own war effort in regard to war production is still lagging behind that of Germany?

Mr. Dalton: I am not departmentally responsible for our own war production.

Mr. Shinwell: But would the Minister make the information available to the House?

Mr. Dalton: I would like notice of that Question, but I should think probably not.

Mr. Shinwell: Why not? Is it not in the public interest that we should have information of the German war effort?

Mr. Dalton: No, Sir, it may be against the public interest that such information as I have here should be broadcast. The last time I gave an account of my stewardship I gave it in private.

Mr. A. Bevan: But is Germany not aware of the extent of her own war effort, and would it be conveying information to Germany if we published it?

Mr. Dalton: If my hon. Friend will put down the Question, I will endeavour to give it an answer, but at this stage I must not be committed to giving full answers in public sessions to the matters referred to in the latter part of my hon. Friend's Question.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY.

CADETS.

Mr. J. P. Morris: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that gentleman-cadets at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, who passed out on their course and, if proceeding to infantry regiments, would have been commissioned on the 18th October, 1939, were, because possessed of certain technical knowledge, retained for the Royal Corps of Signals and were not granted their commissions until seven months later and, as this delayed grant of commissions has meant immediate financial loss and recurring annual financial loss for the rest of their military career, together with loss of seniority, which may be a great hardship in the future, whether he will ante-date their commissions to 18th October, 1939?

The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Eden): None of the gentlemen-cadets at Sandhurst at the outbreak of war had completed the normal course, and it was decided that they should be enlisted and posted to officer cadet training units. It is true that the officer cadet training unit's course for those who elected the Royal Corps of Signals was longer than that for those who elected to proceed to infantry, but all these cadets were commissioned at an age younger than usual, and consequently find themselves favourably placed as compared with pre-war entrants. They were, moreover, the last cadets to be given regular commissions. In these circumstances, and as the relative seniority of the officers in question in their own corps or regiments is in no way affected, it is not considered that their careers or prospects have been in any way prejudiced. As officers of the Royal Corps of Signals, they will, in fact, draw a higher rate of pay than they would have done if they had proceeded to the infantry.

Mr. Ammon: What is a "gentleman-cadet"?

Mr. Eden: It is the term which has been used.

Mr. Shinwell: But do we distinguish between gentlemen and others in the Army?

BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR.

Sir Adam Maitland: asked the Secretary of State for War what arrangements have been made to ensure that parcels of food despatched to officers and men who are prisoners of war in Germany are, in fact, being delivered to them?

Mr. Eden: Reports have been received from the American Embassy and the International Red Cross, the most recent being one sent from Berlin dated 30th October, describing the arrival of parcels of food, clothing and books at camps in Germany in which British prisoners of war are detained. Each parcel which is sent to a British prisoner of war contains a postcard on which the recipient can acknowledge the receipt of the parcel addressed to him.

Mr. Bellenger: asked the Secretary of State for War how many British troops are held as prisoners of war by Germany and Italy?

Mr. Eden: The number is about 44,000.

BAND BOYS, AYR BARRACES (PAY).

Mr. Sloan: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that band boys in Ayr Barracks received 6d. per day increase on 1st September and have now been informed that this increase should not have been made in view of the fact that they ought not to smoke; that the increase has now been withdrawn and intimation made that the boys have to refund payments made since 1st September; and whether he will undertake to have the matter reviewed and allow the boys to retain the increase in pay?

Mr. Eden: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke (Mr. E. Smith) on 16th October last, of which I am sending him a copy. Where payment has been made in error, I am considering steps to arrange that recovery of the over-issue should be waived.

Mr. Sloan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many soldiers who receive the extra 6d. a day do not smoke, and is it not unjust when a uniform rate is granted that these boys should not participate in it? Could not the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the matter?

Mr. Eden: I do not think I could. This money was given for a specific purpose. I will see that where it has been given out by mistake they will not suffer for it.

Mr. J. J. Davidson: Are not some of the band boys married?

AUXILIARY PIONEER CORPS.

Mr. Mander: asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, both in that section consisting of British subjects and the section composed of aliens, is armed?

Mr. Eden: The British companies of the Corps are completely equipped with rifles. It is proposed to issue a percentage of rifles to certain of the companies of alien personnel.

Mr. Mander: Is it intended in due course to treat both companies exactly the same, whether British or alien?

Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir. I am not making any difference in principle. It is a question of supply and the claims of the Home Guard.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS (INQUIRY).

Mr. Edmund Harvey: asked the Secretary of State for War whether the


report of the inquiry into allegations concerning the ill-treatment of conscientious objectors has been completed; and whether he is in a position to make a statement on the action which he proposes to take as a result of the inquiry?

Mr. Eden: The report has not yet been completed. A great deal of evidence was taken, and in consequence the preparation of the report is taking time.

RETURNED CIVILIAN CLOTHING (CHARGES).

Sir Robert Young: asked the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the cases of G. C. Glover and J. P. Burbage, regarding whom communications were sent to his Department, whether, in these cases, refundments of the charges made for the return of civilian clothing to their homes have been made; when they were made; and whether by the Army authorities or the railway company concerned?

Mr. Eden: In the case of G. C. Glover, the civilian clothes were despatched to his home by rail, and the charge for their carriage was met from Army funds. Owing, however, to an error on the part of the railway company concerned, this charge was preferred again to the soldier's relatives on delivery of the parcel. The error is being pointed out to the railway company, who are being asked to refund the overcharge to the relatives. As regards the case of J. P. Burbage, I have not yet completed my inquiries.

Sir R. Young: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the railway companies say they have had no instructions to receive parcels in this connection?

Mr. Eden: This is the first case I have known that has gone wrong.

AIR-RAID DEBRIS (CLEARANCE).

Mr. Purbrick: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has made available the service of soldiers to help in the clearing-up of the ruins of enemy-damaged buildings; if so, how many; and when does he anticipate that the work of such removal of the damage up to date in London will be completed?

Mr. Eden: With regard to the first and second parts of the Question, the present number is about 12,000. With regard to the last part of the Question, I am in

formed by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that he is unable to give any estimate.

Mr. Purbrick: Would it not be possible for more soldiers to be engaged in the work of clearing up these eyesores, which are so depressing?

Mr. Eden: I must make it quite plain that so far as the Army is concerned we are perfectly willing to do anything we can to help.

Sir Herbert Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have received a letter written on behalf of the Regional Commissioner to the effect that delays in this work are due to the limited number of troops available? Have not articles appeared in the Press asking whether we cannot have more men on this job?

Mr. Eden: That is why I gave that answer. The Army is ready to give any help it can.

Sir H. Williams: The implication in the letter addressed to me was that such help had been refused.

Mr. Thorne: Are the men who are working on this very dangerous and arduous work getting any extra pay?

Mr. Eden: I do not think we could draw that distinction.

Commander Sir Archibald Southby: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind the paramount importance of the soldiers carrying out military training? Would it not be better to use unemployed men to do this work?

Mr. Eden: We have to try to get a proper balance. What I wanted to make clear was that the Army have not been asked to help and refused.

Miss Rathbone: In view of the fact that in many cases where persons are trapped their lives depend on their being got cut quickly, is not the most important thing to have the most experienced men in that type of work, which is both highly skilled and dangerous?

NON-COMBATANTS.

Mr. Sloan: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered the petition signed by 60 non-combatants stationed at a place of which he has been informed, asking to be transferred to


Civil Defence work in London or any other humanitarian duties; and whether he will consider utilising their services in this particular work?

Mr. Eden: I cannot find that this petition has been received in the War Office. I am making further inquiries.

CO-OPERATION WITH ROYAL AIR FORCE.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will assure the House that detailed and comprehensive arrangements have been arrived at for the close co-operation of all branches of the Army and the Air Force?

Mr. Eden: Detailed and comprehensive arrangements have been arrived at. These have been the subject of discussion between the Air Ministry and War Office during the last two months, and the machinery to be set up is something far in advance of what we have had up till now. Much has been done during the summer and autumn, but the means of co-operation now decided upon will be fully operative by 1st December. The exact nature of the scheme cannot yet be made public. For the present it is enough to say that the whole matter of co-operation between all parts of the Army and Royal Air Force is now on an agreed and sound basis.

Mr. De la Bère: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would care to give an assurance that this matter is satisfactory in the Middle East, where he has just been?

Mr. Eden: I can certainly give that assurance. I have never known conditions in which co-operation between the two Services was better than it now is there.

Sir H. Williams: Does the co-operation to which the right hon. Gentleman refers include co-operation in training between anti-aircraft units and the Royal Air Force?

Mr. Eden: I am not quite sure that I had that in mind. What I had in mind was co-operation in training between the Army and the Royal Air Force.

Mr. Bellenger: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that actual operational co-operation is being carried on between the Army and the Air Force, in view of the very bitter experiences in the French débacle?

Mr. Eden: That is just one of the points I have in mind. I do not want to be drawn further at present. The House will see that much work has been done on this matter in the last few months.

AUXILIARY TERRITORIAL SERVICE COUNCIL.

Miss Ward: asked the Secretary of State for War on what date the members of the newly constituted Auxiliary Territorial Service Council take over their departmental responsibilities?

Mr. Eden: The first meeting of the Council was held on 24th October, and the members have taken over their responsibilities from that date.

SOLDIERS (REPRESENTATIONS TO MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT).

Mr. Ralph Beaumont: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will make a statement as to the extent to which the provisions of the King's Regulations, preventing serving soldiers from approaching Members of Parliament, now apply?

Mr. Eden: A serving officer or soldier who wishes to make any representation relating to military matters is entitled to make it through the recognised military channels and in no other way. On other matters, he is fully at liberty to communicate with hon. Members.

Sir A. Southby: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it perfectly clear that nothing can prevent a constituent from approaching his Member of Parliament on any subject on which he feels he should have the latter's advice?

Mr. Eden: I do not think there are any real difficulties about this. Judging from my postbag, I think it works very well.

Mr. Davidson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I received a letter from his Under-Secretary yesterday, stating that a colonel who reprimanded a soldier for approaching an M.P. was perfectly in order?

Mr. Bevan: Will the right hon. Gentleman send instructions to officers informing them that no penalties at all can be inflicted on men for communicating with Members of Parliament? This is a very serious matter. In many letters which we receive we are asked by the men not to give their names because they are afraid of action being taken by their officers?

Mr. Magnay: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in one case the commanding officer threatened a man with court-martial because he had the audacity to come to me, his Member of Parliament?

Mr. Eden: I think the position under King's Regulations is perfectly clear. If it is not clear, I will consider the Supplementary Questions that have been asked and make it clear in a later answer.

Mr. Granville: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that that is issued in regimental orders, where the troops can see it?

Mr. Eden: There is not only that; there is the question of King's Regulations, in the light of which these questions must be carefully considered. I was under the impression that Members did not have any difficulty, but if that is not so, I will look into it.

Mr. Bevan: Will the public Press, which is now most inadequately reporting the proceedings of the House of Commons, give publicity to this matter?

Mr. Gurney Braithwaite: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many cases, owing to this difficulty, the parents of the men concerned may write to their Members?

Mr. Ralph Beaumont: The Regulations were made for a small peace-time Army and are not therefore suitable for a large war-time Army composed of men drawn from all occupations who have hitherto enjoyed the right of approaching Members of Parliament whenever they liked. Should not the Regulations therefore be modified?

Mr. Eden: It is not my intention to bar access to Members of Parliament. The question, however, arises of squaring that with King's Regulations.

OFFICERS (MARRIAGE ALLOWANCE).

Mr. Salt: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the hardships which are incurred by the wives of young officers owing to the small amount of their separation allowance; and will he remove the present differentiation by which the wives of officers over 30 years of age receive 42s. weekly against 21S. in the case of men under that age, and as wives of officers should at least receive as much as those whose husbands are in the ranks?

Mr. Eden: While I sympathise with the point of view of my hon. Friend, I would remind him of the reasons for the distinction, in respect of marriage allowance, between officers of 30 years of age or over and those under 30. The peace time scale of remuneration did not recognise officers as married until they were 30 years of age. It was considered that the ordinary peace time code could not fairly be applied in time of war, when many civilians who have married under 30 years of age serve with the Army. It was decided accordingly, that all married officers, irrespective of age, should receive an allowance. With regard to the latter part of my hon. Friend's Question, I would remind him that the income of an officer's wife is not limited to a marriage allowance from Army funds. On the contrary, an officer, equally with a private soldier, would normally make an allowance from his pay, and because of his higher pay the allowance would normally be greater.

Mr. Salt: Does my right hon. Friend really not think that, as we are insisting upon having younger men in the Army, it is logical that they should have as great a separation allowance as men of over 30?

Mr. Eden: As I have said, this addition has been made. We would all like to do more, but we have to relate these demands to the many others in the State.

Mr. Quintin Hogg: Is my right hon. Friend not aware that there are warrant officers and N.C.O.'s who are deterred from taking commissions because of the scale of allowances made to the lower ranks of commissioned officers?

JUNIOR OFFICERS (PAY).

Mr. Salt: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is prepared to consider some increase of pay for junior officers owing to the increased cost of living, as has been granted to men in the ranks?

Mr. Eden: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Eye (Mr. Granville) on 22nd October last, of which I am sending him a copy.

OFFICERS' OUTFIT (PURCHASE TAX).

Brigadier-General Sir Ernest Makins: asked the Secretary of State for War


whether he is aware that military tailors are charging Purchase Tax upon uniforms supplied to officers; whether the State intends to defray this extra cost by increasing grants for such uniforms; or whether, under the circumstances, he will consider waiving this charge so far as uniforms are concerned?

Mr. Doland: asked the Minister of Labour whether, in view of the fact that the Purchase Tax is now added to the wholesale cost of officers' uniforms, the War Office will increase the grant to the officers for their initial equipment?

Mr. Eden: I will answer this Question and No. 80 together. The effect of Purchase Tax on officers' outfit allowance is under consideration.

REQUISITIONED BUILDINGS.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Secretary of State for War how many buildings requisitioned by his Department have not yet been used and are remaining empty?

Mr. Eden: It is not the practice of the War Department to requisition buildings unless occupation is imminent, and such buildings remain empty only until any necessary cooking and sanitary facilities and black-out arrangements are provided.

SPANISH SOLDIERS, GREAT BRITAIN.

Mr. Wedgwood: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has considered a letter from the Hull Labour Party concerning the action of the War Office in sending either back to France or into prison here some 270 Spanish republican soldiers; how many were sent back to Casa Blanca; how many have now joined the British Army; and how many are still in British prisons?

Mr. Eden: I have received a letter on this subject from the Hull Labour Party, and a reply has been sent. The 270 Spanish nationals were serving in a French Army labour unit, and, as such, remained under the orders of the French military authorities then in England, by whom all arrangements for their repatriation were made, both as to the ship in which they sailed, and their final destinations. Two hundred and forty-four of

these men were so repatriated. The remaining 26 were unable to embark for various reasons and were in due course sent to a refugee reception centre where employment could be found for them in civil occupations. As no suitable military accommodation was available for these men when they landed in the United Kingdom, they were lodged in prisons, under arrangements made by the Home Office, pending repatriation. Their detention was effected at the request of the French military authorities. None of these men have joined units of the British Army, and none are now in British prisons.

Mr. Wedgwood: Why were these men, who had experience of fighting in Spain, not allowed to join even the A.M.P.S.?

Mr. Eden: I would like notice of that question. I think these were men who came over at the time of Dunkirk; I think that is the position.

MILITARY SERVICE (CALLING-UP).

Mr. Doland: asked the Secretary of State for War the reasons for the delay in thousands of cases of men under 30 years of age who registered for the Army and Air Force Services as long ago as last June, and have not been called up for service?

Mr. Munro (Lord of the Treasury): I have been asked to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 15th October to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore), a copy of which is being sent to him.

Oral Answers to Questions — SCOTLAND.

DUMFRIES (PRESBYTERY'S LETTER).

Mr. Sloan: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered a letter from the Presbytery of Dumfries drawing his attention to the amount of drunkenness and immorality prevailing in that town; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ernest Brown): I am giving consideration to this letter and to other representations with special reference to the development of recreational and welfare facilities in Dumfries.

UNEMPLOYMENT.

Mr. Davidson: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what co-ordination exists between the Scottish Office and the Ministry of Labour to deal with the recent increase of unemployment in Scotland?

Mr. Munro: I have been asked to reply. The Ministry of Labour and National Service is in close touch with the various Departments of the Secretary of State for Scotland concerned with particular aspects of the employment situation in Scotland. As the hon. Member will see from the unemployment figures being issued to-day, there was a decrease in unemployment in Scotland on 12th October as compared with the numbers unemployed a month previously.

Mr. Davidson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that over a period of six months there has been an increase in unemployment in Scotland? Can he explain why the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour goes about making speeches such as he does when unemployment is increasing generally throughout the country?

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL INDUSTRY.

STOCKS, SALFORD.

Mr. J. P. Morris: asked the Secretary for Mines whether he is aware that representatives of his Department visited Salford on 13th September, inspected sites for the storage of coal, and promised that supplies of coal for storage would be delivered at once; that the consumption of coal in Salford amounts to 30,000 tons per month, whereas there are only 4,000 tons now stored; and what action he proposes to take to prevent a repetition of the conditions experienced last winter?

The Secretary for Mines (Mr. David Grenfell): I am aware that, in consultation with the local authority, my Department has arranged sites in Salford for Government stocks of coal, and that up to the present comparatively small quantities of coal have been stored on Government account. But deliveries of coal in Salford this summer have been substantially in excess of those of last year, and the stocks of merchants and of consumers are good. The Government stocks are being increased as supplies come forward.

PRICES, KENT.

Sir Irving Albery: asked the Secretary for Mines why the price of coal in Kent has been fixed higher than anywhere else in the country?

Mr. Grenfell: Circumstances and increases in costs in Kent are abnormal, and, as it is particularly desirable to maintain output in this area, the Government have dealt exceptionally with this district.

Sir I. Albery: In what respect is the position of Kent abnormal, compared to that of other counties in the neighbourhood?

Mr. Grenfell: The hon. Member represents a Kent division, and he knows something about it. I cannot give him details, but everybody knows that Kent is very near to the scene of war operations day by day.

Sir I. Albery: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the coal consumed in Kent is not, in the main, Kent coal? As the extra cost is due to war causes, surely Kent should not be penalised.

Mr. Grenfell: But the obverse is true, that Kent coal is almost entirely consumed in Kent; and it is very important that we should have all the coal we can get from Kent. As the hon. Member knows, evacuation has very substantially reduced the number employed in that area, and has added to the cost thereby.

Mr. Magnay: Why should the Kent coalfields have special treatment as compared with Durham?

Mr. Grenfell: Because a ton of coal produced in Kent is worth many tons produced elsewhere.

Sir I. Albery: Can the hon. Gentleman let me have details as to how the extra cost is arrived at?

Mr. Grenfell: Yes, that is quite easy. I will furnish the hon. Member with particulars.

MINERS (EMPLOYMENT).

Mr. Bevan: asked the Secretary for Mines what steps he is taking, other than the payment of unemployment benefit, to safeguard the position of the miners and secure their full employment?

Mr. Grenfell: As my hon. Friend will be aware, unemployment at the pits is due, on the one hand, to the closing of export markets, and, on the other, to difficulties of distribution. Every effort is being made, in conjunction with the Departments concerned, as well as with the industry, to overcome the difficulties of distribution as they arise.

Mr. Bevan: Is not the hon. Member aware that the difficulties arising in the coal industry, as illustrated by the last Question, are caused by the fact that the industry is unequally affected by the war, and that some system of national unification of industry will have to be adopted? Has he made representations to the Government—because he himself has no power in the matter—in order to bring about national unification of industry?

Mr. Grenfell: I am not sure that national unification of production alone will serve this purpose. But I am in very close contact with other Departments, and there is a special committee in my Department, sitting every day at 11 o'clock, dealing with the distribution of coal, while I personally attend the committee with representatives of other Departments at which all these problems are dealt with.

Mr. Lawson: Is the Minister aware that this matter is becoming so serious that unless something drastic is done it will have serious effect upon the war effort in these areas?

Mr. Grenfell: I am not allowed to forget that. The organisation of the work-people themselves approaches me often. There is no danger that the Government will be allowed to overlook the difficulties in the coal trade, but one must have regard to the conditions. All I promise is that everything possible will be done.

Mr. Leslie Boyce: Is not this problem largely bound up with the shortage of wagons and the difficulty of transport generally?

Mr. Grenfell: No, Sir. The hon. Member knows the working conditions as well as I do. There is no shortage of wagons. All these so-called explanations which attribute the transport difficulty to a shortage of wagons here and there do not cover the position at all.

SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES (DOMINIONS).

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether he will communicate with Dominion Governments with a view to comparing respective legal actions taken against subjects charged with subversive speeches or activity, and with a view to securing a common principle to become operative in all such legal actions?

The Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Viscount Cranborne): The administration in the Dominions of the law in regard to subversive activities is a matter for the consideration of the Dominion authorities, and, no doubt, differs in accordance with the varying circumstances of the countries concerned. Having regard to these differences, I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by an approach to the Dominion Governments on lines suggested in the hon. Member's Question.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in fact there has been differentiation in the interpretation and treatment of a number of cases of alleged subversive activities in the Dominions and in India? Would he not draw the attention of the Indian Government to a number of cases of people who have made speeches very much like Mr. Nehru's and who have not received four years rigorous imprisonment?

Viscount Cranborne: India is not a matter for me. In regard to the Dominions, it would be very unwise, I think, to interfere with their internal affairs.

Mr. Sorensen: Does that apply to India, too?

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES.

EXPORTS.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Prime Minister whether, in connection with the exportation and manufacture of foodstuffs, such as biscuits and chocolates, he will take steps to place the control and authorisation for export of these commodities under the Minister of Food, with a view to his authority overriding, when necessary, the Department of Overseas Trade and the Export Council, since many members of the working public employed throughout the night and others utilising


air-raid shelters throughout the night, are unable to secure adequate supplies at the present time?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): Exports of the majority of important foodstuffs, except to the Colonies, are controlled by the Export Licensing Department of the Board of Trade, in consultation with the Ministry of Food and other Departments concerned. Exports to the Colonies are controlled by import licences, issued by the Colonial Administrations in agreement with the Colonial Office and the Ministry of Food. The Minister of Food sees no reason for altering the existing arrangements. Where commodities are in short supply in the United Kingdom—for example, chocolate and biscuits—it is due to the supply position, not to the exports, which are negligible in volume. The actual quantities of various foodstuffs, the export of which might be licensed, is at the present moment under discussion, and the question of still further restricting the small quantities of foodstuffs in short supply which are at present exported will be considered. In the case of biscuits, which make demands upon our supplies of sugar and fats, the present export is only a small proportion—about 5 per cent.—of the normal export.

Mr. De la Bère: Can my right hon. Friend suggest that the 3,000 tons of biscuits exported during the last three months is a negligible quantity? Is he not aware that owing to these considerations a first-class muddle has occurred, and that the public are without biscuits and slab chocolate to-day? Will he not take definite action to put these matters right, and not allow Mr. D'Arcy Cooper to go down to Reading and say that the export trade in biscuits is to be maintained, when there are not enough for home consumption? It is a grave scandal, and I shall have to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

MILK.

Mr. David Adams: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, with a view to raising the low standards of many milk-producing farms, County War Agricultural Executive Committees are now empowered to serve compulsory improvement orders upon the farmers concerned with a view to an improvement in the quality of the milk supplied?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams): Very satisfactory progress has been made in the production of quality milks in recent years and a substantial proportion of the total output is now of accredited or higher standard. In these circumstances, it would hardly seem appropriate, under the difficulties of wartime production, to compel farmers to conform with higher standards of quality than were considered necessary in peace time.

Mr. Adams: In view of the fact that these committees have power to enter into individual farms in order to ensure the maximum production of food, surely it is not unreasonable that farms which have a very low standard should have their standard raised in order to produce pure milk, which they are not doing at present?

Mr. Williams: My hon. Friend will readily appreciate that to secure a large expansion of quality milk would involve large structural alterations in the buildings to comply with the Orders of the Ministry of Health. I rather fear—and I am sure he will agree with me—that instead of increasing the supply, those difficulties during war time might conceivably lead to a decrease.

POST-WAR PLANS.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: asked the Prime Minister what Government Departments have the responsibility of examining and working out plans with local authorities and industries which are intended to give employment to members of His Majesty's Forces when returning to civilian life after hostilities, as well as those now employed in the manufacture of armaments and munitions?

Mr. Attlee: The problems of post-war employment are intimately connected with the broader issue of post-war reconstruction which necessarily involves almost all Departments in the State. The subject is being studied, but it is not possible to formulate detailed plans until the conditions of the post-war situation become more clear.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is anything actually being done by these Government committees; does my right hon. Friend appreciate that it takes a long time to organise large enterprises which will give employ-


ment; and does he also appreciate the importance of being organised, and that, while we have failed to organise a total war, we must be organised for total peace?

Mr. Attlee: Yes, Sir; I am very well aware of the importance of this question, but the hon. Member will realise that at the present time it is impossible to make detailed plans until we see how the situation develops.

Miss Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it has already been stated that plans are being prepared; can he say whether there is a special committee dealing with this matter, and, if so, may we have the names of the committee?

Mr. Attlee: I have pointed out that the matter is being considered, and I am not prepared to make a further statement at present.

Miss Ward: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it has already been stated that plans are in the course of preparation?

Mr. Attlee: I do not know where that has been stated, and perhaps the hon. Lady will tell me.

Miss Ward: Was it not stated by the Minister of Labour in several debates before the new Government were formed?

Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of including amongst possible post-war aims the admission to the British Commonwealth of Nations all our present Allies on terms to be mutually agreed?

Mr. Attlee: I have nothing to add to the reply given on 29th May to my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for the Chatham Division of Rochester (Captain Plugge).

Mr. Mander: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to clarify in this connection a statement by General Sikorski, Prime Minister of Poland, in which he showed a certain interest in a development of this kind?

Captain Plugge: Since that offer was made to France, surely it could be extended to the countries which have not surrendered and are continuing to fight with us?

Oral Answers to Questions — GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

SCIENTIFIC ADVICE.

Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister what arrangements exist at the Ministries of Economic Warfare, Education, Information, Transport, Office of Works and Board of Trade for obtaining scientific advice on problems that come before these Departments; and whether any of them have a scientific adviser or council of its own?

Mr. Attlee: All the Departments referred to by the hon. Members have the service of technical and scientific officers in their own Departments. If further advice on scientific problems is required, the Departments named have at their disposal the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, the Medical Research Council and the Scientific Advisory Committee under the chairmanship of my Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the constitution and terms of reference of which have been announced in the public Press.

Mr. Mander: Would it be possible to give the names of the scientific advisers attached to the different Departments?

Mr. Attlee: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down Questions to the particular Departments.

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (CONTROLLERS).

Mr. Stokes: asked the Minister of Supply whether he will publish a list giving the names of all the controllers of various supplies in his Ministry, together with their trade connections prior to their appointment; and whether the terms of the various agreements made with them will be made available for the information of Members of this House?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I have had a list prepared showing the names of the various controllers of materials and the main business interests with which they were connected prior to their appointment, which I propose to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Controllers are appointed by letters, the texts of which differ in detail according to the particular circumstances of each case. There is, however, in all cases a general


requirement that a controller must agree to cease from active participation in the management of those businesses which are

RAW MATERIALS CONTROLS.


List of Controllers and their Trade Connections prior to appointment.


Control
Controller.
Trade Connection


Chrome Ore, Magnesite and Walfram.
Mr. W.T.V. Harmer
Technical Assistant to the Managing Director of United Steel Companies Ltd.


Cotton
Sir Percy Ashley, K.B.E., C.B.
Members of the Import Duties Advisory Committee.


Fertilisers
Mr. H. V. Cunningham
Managing Director, Scottish Agricultural Industries, Ltd.


Flax
Rt. Hon. Earl De La Warr, P.C.
Director, W. F. Malcolm &amp; Co., Ltd.



Mr. J. S. Ferrier (Deputy Controller).



Hemp
Mr. A. M. Landauer
Senior Partner in Landauer &amp; Co.


Industrial Ammonia
Mr. F. C. O. Speyer
Delegate Director at I.C.I. (Fertiliser &amp; Synthetic Products) Ltd., and General Manager, British Sulphate of Ammonia Federation.


Iron and Steel
Col. Sir W. C. Wright, Bart., K.B.E., C.B.
Chairman, Baldwins, Ltd. and Guest, Keen, Baldwins Iron and Steel Co., Ltd., Director of Public Companies.


Jute
Mr. G. Malcolm, C.B.E.
Director, Ralli Bros., Ltd.


Leather
Dr. E. C. Snow, C.B.E.
Manager, United Tanners Federation.


Molasses and Industrial Alcohol.
Mr. A.V. Board
Director Chairman, The Distillers Co., Ltd., British Industrial Solvents, Ltd., and Commercial Solvents, (Great Britain) Ltd.


Plastics
Mr. A. V. Board
Director Chairman, The Distillers Co., Ltd., British Industrial Solvents, Ltd., and Commercial Solvents, (Great Britain) Ltd.


Non-Ferrous Metals
Mr. J. C. Budd, Mr. W. Mure
Managing Directors, British Metal Corporation, Ltd.


Brass
Mr. J. C. Budd, Mr. W. Mure
Managing Directors, British Metal Corporation, Ltd.


Diamond Dies
Mr. J. C. Budd, Mr. W. Mure
Managing Directors, British Metal Corporation, Ltd.


Paper
Mr. A. Ralph Reed
Chairman, A. E. Reed &amp; Co., Ltd.


Silk and Rayon
Mr. H. O. Hambelton
One-time Director of T. H. Hambleton, Ltd.


Sulphuric Acid
Mr. H. Garrod-Thomas
General Manager &amp; Secretary, National Sulphuric Acid Association.


Timber
Major A. I. Harris
Partner in L. Bamberger &amp; Sons.


Wool
Sir Harry Shackleton
Chairman, Wool Textile Delegation, President, Woollen &amp; Worsted Trades Federation, Director of Taylor, Shackleton &amp; Co., Ltd.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE.

PURCHASE TAX.

Sir Herbert Williams: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the cellulose fabric, used to replace glass broken by enemy action, is subject to the Purchase Tax; and whether he is prepared to make an order exempting this material from the tax?

concerned with the commodity under his control.

Following is the list:

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): I assume that my hon. Friend refers to the various textile fabrics which are used in part as window substitutes and which are chargeable with Purchase Tax. As I explained to the House when introducing the tax, it is essential that its scope shall be as wide as possible if it is to produce the substantial revenue for which I look. Accordingly I have


been obliged to resist many appeals for special consideration and I regret that I am unable to grant exemption in this case.

Sir H. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his attitude in respect of this particular material, the use of which saves enormous quantities of timber, and is a most efficient means of providing light and excluding wind and weather; and is he aware that any restriction on its use will have a very adverse effect on the national effort?

Sir K. Wood: I realise that fact, but many of these fabrics used for the repair and strengthening of windows are not specialised for such use, and it has been found impracticable to give exemption to such materials.

Mr. Silkin: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the difficulties of wholesalers in settling the amount of Purchase Tax to charge when they deal in goods the rate of Purchase Tax on which depends on their ultimate use and destination; and whether he will, as soon as possible, issue a statement giving necessary guidance to wholesalers on this matter?

Sir K. Wood: I have not heard of any difficulties of the kind mentioned, but if my hon. Friend has any particular cases in mind and will let me have details, I shall be glad to inquiry into them.

Mr. Doland: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is yet able to state whether the United States Customs have issued an order requiring invoices covering British merchandise shipped to the United States to state clearly whether or not the goods are subject to British Purchase Tax; whether the United States Customs officials will include in the assessed valuation of the goods the Purchase Tax to importers; and what steps will be taken to prevent the prejudicial effect of this upon our export trade to the United States?

Mr. Harcourt Johnstone (Secretary, Department of Overseas Trade): The answer to the first and second parts of the Question is generally in the affirmative. Details of the information required by the United States Customs authorities were published in the Board of Trade Journal of 7th November. As to the last part,

the matter is receiving the Government's earnest attention, but I am not yet in a position to indicate what steps it may be possible to take.

AIR-RAID LIFE INSURANCE.

Major Sir Jocelyn Lucas: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now prepared either to guarantee insurance companies against loss if they offer a fair rate for air-raid life insurance, or alternatively, will inaugurate a totalisator or pool assurance retaining a percentage for expenses, in view of the fact that far larger benefits would be paid, and that it is just as important for the breadwinner to be able to insure his life as his property?

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take immediate steps to obtain an actuarial calculation, based on the mortality figures from air raids for the 12 months from 1st November, 1939, to 1st November, 1940, with a view to facilitating members of the general public being able effectively to insure their lives at a reasonable premium, since the present rates of the insurance companies do not appear to be based on any actuarial calculation?

Sir K. Wood: As I have already stated, there are many difficulties in adopting the exact suggestions of my hon. Friends, and I could not recommend their adoption. The Government have, however, had this whole question under consideration, and I hope to be able to make an announcement at an early date.

Mr. De la Bère: Will my right hon. Friend really get the life offices and the insurance companies together and inform them that the rates that have been charged are absolutely unjustified; and is he aware that the public ought not to be exploited during the war? How can it be said that the insurance companies are taking part in the total effort when they are behaving in this way?

Sir J. Lucas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is 100 per cent. difference between the various companies giving premiums, and that also football pools are stepping into what they imagine to be a very profitable market?

Sir K. Wood: I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the statement that I am to make on the matter.

Mr. Stokes: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why, if it is possible for insurance companies to make the necessary calculations, it is impossible for the Government to do so?

Sir K. Wood: I have not said so, but my hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out the difficulties and discrepancies that have already arisen.

BANK ADVANCES.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer from what source the banks are obtaining the means to make advances to the Treasury known as bank deposits; and is it intended to liquidate these borrowings from the sale of National Savings Certificates or bonds?

Sir K. Wood: The banks are able to lend to the Government by way of Treasury deposit receipts as a result of the increased liquid funds in their hands arising from the increase in their customers' deposits. As regards the second part of the Question, the proceeds of sales of Government securities to the public are not earmarked to particular purposes but, along with the proceeds of taxation, are available to meet all Government expenditure, including the repayment of short-term debt.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Have not these credits been brought into existence by the action of the banks, and is it not advisable at this time that the Government should be responsible for the creation of credit for war purposes?

Mr. De la Bère: Are these credits not costless credits? They cost the banks nothing.

Sir K. Wood: I have already answered various questions which my hon. Friend has put.

Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that we must adopt a new conception of finance if we are to win the war?

Sir K. Wood: I have no doubt that my hon. Friend would agree to adopt the suggestions that have been made by his hon. Friends.

BANK DEPOSITS.

Mr. Loftus: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that

the deposits of the joint stock banks have increased by over £300,000,000 since the outbreak of war; and whether, as this increase represents additional money brought into existence by the action of the banks in supplying the Treasury with funds which they create without cost to themselves, but upon which the Government pays interest to the banks, he will consider amending the law so that any further issue of such money, which may be necessary, shall be made upon the authority, and to the benefit, of His Majesty's Treasury, and not upon the authority and to the benefit of any private interests?

Sir K. Wood: I am aware of the increase in the deposits of the banks but cannot accept the suggestions in the rest of my hon. Friend's Question. In so far as the increase has been due to the increased expenditure of Government funds those funds have been provided in the main by means other than borrowing from the banks. Two-thirds of the increase in bank deposits had in fact incurred before the Treasury began to borrow from the banks by means of Treasury deposit receipts.

Mr. Loftus: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this borrowing of newly created money is dangerously increasing the floating debt, a practice which my right hon. Friend condemned at Leeds on 13th September; and, if it is to continue, will he arrange that these newly created credit moneys are created by the State and not by a private monopoly?

Sir K. Wood: I cannot go into that question.

Mr. Bevan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a universal demand for him to adopt modern methods in financing this war; and does he not realise that a general impression is abroad that the Treasury is as backward as was the French Army?

Sir K. Wood: No, Sir; I do not think so.

INSURED GOODS (DAMAGE).

Mr. Silkin: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he is aware that there is considerable delay in releasing stocks of goods damaged by enemy action belonging to traders because such goods have to be inspected to


assess the amount of damage for the purpose of compensation; that this delay is causing further deterioration in these stocks; and whether he will devise some machinery for the purpose of releasing such stocks without delay?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George): I am grateful to the hon. Member for affording me a further opportunity of correcting the mistaken notion that after goods insured under the Commodity Scheme have been damaged the policy holder must wait until an assessor comes along before taking salvage measures. All policy holders have been instructed that, in the event of damage to insured goods, it is their duty to take all reasonable steps necessary to prevent further loss or damage and if it is necessary for this purpose to remove the goods to a place of safety, the expenses of removal will be allowed without assessment before-hand.

Mr. Silkin: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there was a statement in the Press recently which referred to foodstuffs but that nothing whatever was said about other material? Could he make it quite clear that his statement applies to all kinds of salvaged goods?

Major Lloyd George: If the hon. Gentleman had seen the full statement made on this very question, he would have found that it dealt with all commodities, but if there is any doubt, I will take steps to see that the position is made quite clear.

Mr. Silkin: Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman communicate with the London Region, because they are under the impression that when clearing debris they must leave these stocks standing?

Major Lloyd George: If that is the case I am quite prepared to see that the matter is made clear to them.

WAR-RISK FATALITIES (INSURED PERSONS).

Sir J. Lucas: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he will give the approximate number of persons insured against war-risk fatalities by the big insurance companies, both for the first year of the war and to date, together with the number of

claims made and the average premium rate charged?

Major Lloyd George: I regret that the detailed information asked for is not available.

FREE FRENCH FORCE.

Sir R. Young: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the French service men in quarters in a town of which he has been informed, are not part of General de Gaulle's volunteer force; that much adverse comment has been caused by the way these men are entertained and feted, to the neglect of men in our own Services; and whether he will cause it to be known that Frenchmen serving in the war wear a distinguishing badge to denote their support of General de Gaulle?

Mr. Eden: No French service personnel are quartered in the town to which my hon. Friend refers. A notification is about to be issued to all concerned that the personnel of General de Gaulle's Forces bear on each shoulder of their uniforms the word "France" in white letters, and reference has also been made to this fact in the Press.

Sir R. Young: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I saw a company of these French sailors or soldiers in Chester when I was there, and that they were dining in one of the military rooms?

Mr. Eden: I have made inquiries on the report which I received. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will have a word with me about it.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

PUBLIC SHELTERS.

Mr. Brooke: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that his circular 262/1940 to local authorities, which promises them that the Government will reimburse the whole cost of construction and equipment of approved air-raid shelters contracted for by them after 19th October, but not before that date, discriminates financially in favour of those authorities which have been backward in shelter construction, and against those which provided shelters on a proper scale when they were originally called upon to do so; and what steps


does he propose to take to ensure that ratepayers are not made to bear an extra burden because their council has done its duty?

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security (Miss Wilkinson): It is not practicable to avoid seine inequalities when the rates of grant are altered. The alteration which has been made is designed to meet present circumstances and I can hold out no expectation that it will be made retrospective.

Mr. Brooke: Is the Parliamentary Secretary not aware of the disastrous long-term effects of this decision on local government if slack local authorities can expect to receive from the Government rewards for their slackness?

Miss Wilkinson: I am quite aware that this matter involves a grave question of policy, and for that reason I think the Question ought to be put to my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Brooke: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the wet conditions, caused by leakage through cracks and at the entrances, in a number of the shelters provided by the London County Council for their tenants on the Honor Oak estate, Brockley, and that, although complaints have been made by the tenants over a long period, no effective action has vet been taken; and will he see that the council remedies these troubles without further delay?

Miss Wilkinson: I have arranged for a special inspection of these shelters. It appears that dampness undoubtedly exists, but the conditions can be remedied and the L.C.C. are being advised to proceed with the work at once.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Is not the hon. Lady aware that this is only one of hundreds of cases in London? Only last night people queued up in wet conditions, and will she convey to her right hon. Friend the suggestion that if a few more engineers or outsiders are brought in, they could help to deal with this urgent problem, which is getting beyond local surveyors and authorities?

Miss Wilkinson: We know that this problem of damp exists. I have seen it in the London shelters which I have visited night after night, but we are

putting the best experts we have on to the matter, and a special report is promised for Thursday. We are having a special drive to deal with this problem of damp.

Dr. Edith Summerskill: Could the hon. Lady say whether the Minister is advising local authorities to heat shelters?

Miss Wilkinson: That is another Question.

TUNNELLING (MINERS).

Sir Richard Acland: asked the Home Secretary how many miners have as yet been brought to London to work on extending underground tunnellings for shelter purposes?

Miss Wilkinson: None as yet. The decision to embark upon this work has just been taken and, although no time has been or will be lost, there is much to arrange before the actual digging work can start. My right hon. Friend is in close contact with the Minister for Mines and with hon. Members representing mining constituencies regarding the employment of miners for work of this and other kinds in London.

Sir R. Acland: Does the hon. Lady really say that no time has been lost, as this is about the fifteenth week since the matter came up and a decision has only just been taken?

Miss Wilkinson: I think the hon. Member is a bit wrong in his dates. The actual decision to do this underground tunnelling work has been taken during the last month; the arrangement with the London Passenger Transport Board could only be made last week, actually on Thursday last, and if you take a decision on Thursday to start a complicated engineering job like this, you cannot put miners to dig on the following Monday morning.

Sir R. Acland: I was thinking of the time lost in taking this decision since the opening of the bombing.

Miss Wilkinson: At that time neither I nor my right hon. Friend was responsible.

Mr. Shinwell: Why does the hon. Lady "pass the buck" to other Members of the Government?

Mr. Gurney Braithwaite: Is the hon. Lady aware that the reply which she has given to the House gives an entirely different impression from that given by the Minister of Labour in his public speeches?

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is the hon. Lady aware that three years ago a scheme for utilising tunnels was submitted to the Home Secretary?

CIVILIAN CASUALTIES (PUBLICATION).

Mr. Ralph Beaumont: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that the civilian population is as much in the front line as the personnel of the services, he will consider publishing an official list of civilian casualties from enemy air action in the same way as the names of service casualties are published?

Miss Wilkinson: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for Bolton (Sir E. Cadogan) on 7th November.

INTERNEES.

Mr. G. Strauss: asked the Home Secretary whether Kurt Joos has yet appeared before an Advisory Committee; and, if so, whether his release from internment has been authorised?

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): The release of Kurt Joos from internment was authorised on 31st October.

Mr. Strauss: asked the Home Secretary whether a decision in principle has yet been reached as to the establishment of mixed camps for internees?

Mr. Peake: Until it is known how much accommodation is likely to be available as a result of the release of women at present interned, and the approximate number of couples who will remain interned, it is impossible to make definite plans for a camp for married internees.

Mr. Strauss: I did not ask whether any definite plans had been considered but whether the decision had been taken in principle to establish mixed camps for these internees?

Mr. Peake: My experience has led me to the conclusion that it is not a good thing to decide something in principle unless you are in a position to put it into practice.

Mr. Strauss: May I ask the Minister, as this subject has been under consideration for many months past, whether it is the intention of the Government to set up mixed camps as soon as possible and as soon as conditions permit?

Mr. Peake: As has been stated before, we intend in the future to establish mixed camps for internees, but at the present moment the great majority of male internees have the opportunity of volunteering for the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps, and we should like them to make up their minds before we definitely announce the establishment of mixed camps.

Mr. Noel-Baker: Does not the original answer made by the Under-Secretary mean that there will be a delay of a considerable number of months before any family camps will be set up, and that many of these married people; who are quite unable to join the A.M.P.C. and have been interned for six months, will suffer great hardship?

Mr. Peake: I cannot add to my previous answer.

Mr. Bevan: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that any three Members of Parliament could do the job of the Home Office in this respect far better in a week than they have done it in six months?

Major Milner: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that notwithstanding the release of aliens on medical grounds and hence the necessity for continued care and attention their wives continue to be interned; whether he will state the Home Office policy in this matter; whether the advice of the camp medical officer is taken as to the necessity for such nursing; and whether such advice is acted upon?

Mr. Peake: As I informed the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Silverman) on 18th September last when it is decided to release a married man from internment it is the practice to consider the question of releasing his wife if she also is interned, but as the women who are interned are all in either Category A or B there are in many instances objections on security grounds to their release. Not all the married men released on medical grounds need nursing, but any


representations made by the camp medical officers would, of course, receive careful and sympathetic consideration.

Major Milner: Having regard to the rules of conduct laid down by the hon. Gentleman, how is it there is such intolerable delay in giving a decision one way or the other in these cases?

Mr. Peake: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will bring to my notice any particular cases he has in mind, I will certainly deal with them.

Major Milner: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that I have brought any number of these cases to his mind and that in only rare instances has any action been taken?

WORKERS' REST PERIODS.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary whether he will not only encourage arrangements for rest periods in country areas for air-raid precautions workers or their temporary interchange as between those in heavily-bombed areas and those in less-troubled areas, but also for industrial and other workers subject to heavy strain; and whether he will consider any means of enabling these workers to secure periods of rest and recuperation away from their home areas, if not immediately, then for and from the 1941 spring when lighter shelters may be suitable?

Miss Wilkinson: As regards the Civil Defence workers, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Members for English Universities (Miss Rathbone) and Duddeston (Mr. Simmonds) on 24th October last. As regards industrial and other workers, the matter is one for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

Mr. Sorensen: Does the hon. Lady realise that the mere fact that this Question was accepted at the Table means that it must refer to her Department in some cases? Will the hon. Lady appreciate that numbers of industrial workers are just as much in need of rest and recuperation, after long hours of toil, as are air-raid precautions workers, and in view of the fact that we may be fighting in 1944, will the hon. Lady prepare plans for that year?

Miss Wilkinson: The first half of the Question, which refers to my Department, was answered in the first half of my answer, which dealt with previous replies to Questions on this matter. The second part of the Question, which concerns industrial matters, is entirely a matter for the Ministry of Labour.

Mr. Edmund Harvey: Can the hon. Lady inform the House whether any progress has been made with regard to lest billets for air-raid precautions workers?

Miss Wilkinson: Consideration has been going on, and by this I mean not consideration of the principle, which we have accepted, but consideration of the application of it. There are very real problems in this matter, some of them being due to the reluctance of the London workers themselves to take the rest periods which are offered unless they can go to their wives and families. We are making arrangements of that kind. We are very much in agreement with the principle.

Mr. Davidson: How many local authorities outside London have been consulted on this question by the hon. Lady's Department?

Miss Wilkinson: This Department is really not my Department, as I am dealing with the shelter problem. I cannot give the hon. Member an answer offhand, but the reason for the absence today of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Home Security is that he is consulting local authorities on these matters.

POST OFFICE (TELEPHONE SERVICE).

Sir T. Moore: asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the priority claims on telephone calls from London to the Home Counties frequently preclude any private telephoning; and whether close control is kept over the extent to which such priority telephone calls are allowed to be accepted?

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Captain Waterhouse): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave on 6th November to my hon. Friend the Member for


Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) of which I am sending him a copy.

Sir T. Moore: Cannot my hon. and gallant Friend publish a priority list for the information of hon. Members, so that we may know exactly what the position is with regard to priority calls?

Captain Waterhouse: The matter of priority is a departmental one for the Departments concerned.

Sir Joseph Lamb: Will my hon. and gallant Friend try to see that priority calls are used for priority purposes only?

Captain Waterhouse: We are aware that there is a very gross abuse of priority calls, and we do our best to check them.

INDIA (COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF).

Mr. Bellenger: asked the Secretary of State for India whether any decision has been arrived at regarding the appointment of a Commander-in-Chief in India at the expiration of the present holder's appointment?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): No Sir; but I hope that it will be possible to make an announcement very shortly.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with regard to the Business of the House?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): It will be fitting for the House to pay tribute to-day to the memory of the late Mr. Neville Chamberlain. Afterwards we desire to obtain the Business up to and including the fourth Order as well as the three Motions which follow. The statements and the Debate on the Contributions of India, Burma and the Colonies to the War Effort will be postponed. When the Business which I have outlined is concluded to-day, I shall propose that the House go into Secret Session in order that a statement may be made on the Business of the House.

MR. NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): Since we last met, the House has suffered a very grievous loss in the death of one of its most distinguished Members and of a statesman and public servant who, during the best part of three memorable years, was first Minister of the Crown.
The fierce and bitter controversies which hung around him in recent times were hushed by the news of his illness and are silenced by his death. In paying a tribute of respect and of regard to an eminent man who has been taken from us, no one is obliged to alter the opinions which he has formed or expressed upon issues which have become a part of history; but at the Lychgate we may all pass our own conduct and our own judgments under a searching review. It is not given to human beings, happily for them, for otherwise life would be intolerable, to foresee or to predict to any large extent the unfolding course of events. In one phase men seem to have been right, in another they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time has lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is a new proportion. There is another scale of values. History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days. What is the worth of all this? The only guide to a man is his conscience; the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations; but with this shield, however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honour.
It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were these hopes in which he was disappointed? What were these wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart—the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril and

certainly to the utter disdain of popularity or clamour. Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.
But it is also a help to our country and to our whole Empire, and to our decent faithful way of living that, however long the struggle may last, or however dark may be the clouds which overhang our path, no future generation of English-speaking folks—for that is the tribunal to which we appeal—will doubt that, even at a great cost to ourselves in technical preparation, we were guiltless of the bloodshed, terror and misery which have engulfed so many lands and peoples, and yet seek new victims still. Herr Hitler protests with frantic words and gestures that he has only desired peace. What do these ravings and outpourings count before the silence of Neville Chamberlain's tomb? Long and hard, hazardous years lie before us, but at least we entered upon them united and with clean hearts.
I do not propose to give an appreciation of Neville Chamberlain's life and character, but there were certain qualities, always admired in these Islands, which he possessed in an altogether exceptional degree. He had a physical and moral toughness of fibre which enabled him all through his varied career to endure misfortune and disappointment without being unduly discouraged or wearied. He had a precision of mind and an aptitude for business which raised him far above the ordinary levels of our generation. He had a firmness of spirit which was not often elated by success, seldom downcast by failure and never swayed by panic. When, contrary to all his hopes, beliefs and exertions, the war came upon him, and when, as he himself said, all that he had worked for was shattered, there was no man more resolved to pursue the unsought quarrel to the death. The same qualities which made him one of the last to enter the war, made him one of the last who would quit it until the full victory of a righteous cause was won.
I had the singular experience of passing in a day from being one of his most prominent opponents and critics to being one of his principal lieutenants, and on another day of passing from serving under him to become the head of a Government of which, with perfect loyalty, he was content to be a member. Such relationships are unusual in our public life. I have before told the House on the morrow of the Debate which in the early days of May challenged his position, he declared to me and a few other friends that only a National Government could face the storm about to break upon us, and that if he were an obstacle to the formation of such a Government, he would instantly retire. Thereafter, he acted with that singleness of purpose and simplicity of conduct which at all times, and especially in great times, ought to be a model for us all.
When he returned to duty a few weeks after a most severe operation, the bombardment of London and of the seat of Government had begun. I was a witness during that fortnight of his fortitude under the most grievous and painful bodily afflictions, and I can testify that, although physically only the wreck of a man, his nerve was unshaken and his remarkable mental faculties unimpaired.
After he left the Government he refused all honours. He would die like his father, plain Mr. Chamberlain. I sought the permission of the King however to have him supplied with the Cabinet papers, and until a few days of his death he followed our affairs with keenness, interest and tenacity. He met the approach of death with a steady eye. If he grieved at all, it was that he could not be a spectator of our victory, but I think he died with the comfort of knowing that his country had, at least, turned the corner.
At this time our thoughts must pass to the gracious and charming lady who shared his days of triumph and adversity with a courage and quality the equal of his own. He was, like his father and his brother, Austen, before him, a famous Member of the House of Commons, and we here assembled this morning, Members of all parties, without a single exception, feel that we do ourselves and our country honour in saluting the memory of one whom Disraeli would have called an "English worthy."

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I desire to add a few words on behalf of the Labour party to the eloquent and moving tribute which the Prime Minister has paid to one who was so lately our colleague in the Government, and to one who only six months ago was himself the Prime Minister. It is an old and gracious tradition of this House, when death comes to one who has taken a leading place in Parliament, that controversy should be stilled while leaders of all parties speak in recognition of the loss which has been sustained in common by all Members. At the present time, when war has brought together in support of one Government all the great parties of the State, it might seem, perhaps, unnecessary that anyone should speak from this Bench except the Prime Minister, who can speak for us all. Yet there is, I think, good reason to continue our ancient usages. It is characteristic of the way of life which we are fighting to preserve not to allow political differences to prevent mutual respect and friendship. It is a mark of our democracy to attain national unity, not by uniformity, but by diversity. For all but a few months of his political career, Neville Chamberlain stood for policies in home and foreign affairs to which we of the Labour Party were opposed, and often very bitterly opposed. But this is not the time or the occasion to pass any judgment on those controversies. We are too close to them to gain a true perspective. But opposed as we were to his policy, we never doubted that Mr. Chamberlain was honestly and sincerely following the course which he believed to be right in the interests of his country. We never doubted his deep devotion to the cause of peace.
It is remarkable that one family, in so short a period, should have produced three statesmen of outstanding achievement with such diverse gifts as Joseph, Austen and Neville Chamberlain. Neville Chamberlain brought to the service of this House most remarkable qualities—great industry, an orderly mind, clarity of exposition and readiness in debate, backed by great tenacity and determination. It was always obvious when he spoke that he had not just read a brief but had mastered his subject. Rarely, if ever, was he found wanting in knowledge. Few Ministers were more skilful in piloting through Committee a difficult and


complicated Measure, and he was a great administrator.
It was his fate to be called to the office of Prime Minister at a time of very great difficulty. For nearly 18 years I encountered him as a political opponent—a redoubtable political opponent—but although we disagreed profoundly on politics, he never allowed those differences to affect the friendliness of our private relations. In the last months of his life I worked with him as a colleague and I was then better able to appreciate to the full his qualities. I saw the magnanimity with which he worked with those who had been his severe critics. I recognised his devotion to the common cause and his abhorrence of the evil thing which is seeking to destroy our civilisation. Above all, I admired the courage with which he faced the physical disabilities which came upon him, the devotion with which he strove to the last to serve his country and the faith in ultimate victory which sustained him. I wish, on behalf of the Members of my party, to express our deep sympathy with his widow and family in their bereavement.

The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): I should be grateful if the House would allow me on behalf of the Liberal party to add a very few words to the impressive tributes which have already been offered by the Prime Minister and by the Lord Privy Seal to the memory of Mr. Chamberlain. The Liberal party opposed his policies but respected his character and integrity. More than once, even in the heat of our most controversial Debates, we have paused to pay tribute to his humanity as a social reformer, to his courage, to his high sense of public duty and to his unsparing devotion to the cause of peace. Time and events have obliterated the most acute differences in policy, have united all parties in this House in the pursuit of a common aim—the aim of preserving British freedom from the menace of foreign tyranny—and have enabled us, his erstwhile opponents, to share the present grief of Mr. Chamberlain's family and of his loyal supporters and friends. So, I join with the Prime Minister and the Lord Privy Seal in mourning the loss of a generous and warm-hearted colleague, of a cool, wise and resolute counsellor,

and of a brave and faithful public servant, who, with his father and his brother, shared a name which will for ever remain illustrious in the annals of Parliament.

Mr. Lambert: As one of the few Members who served in the House of Commons with three members of the Chamberlain family, may I add a few words to the tributes which have already been paid to Mr. Neville Chamberlain. I remember so well Sir Austen Chamberlain making his maiden speech. On that occasion Mr. Gladstone, always the soul of chivalry, complimented him on having made a speech, which was "dear and refreshing to a father's heart," and Mr. Joseph Chamberlain was moved by that expression. Sir Austen Chamberlain never became Prime Minister, nor did his distinguished father. That office fell to Mr. Neville Chamberlain, and he inherited a troubled heritage. No one can say that for the past few years our foreign policy has been conducted with vision or with vigour, but that was not entirely due to Mr. Chamberlain. When he assumed office he endeavoured strenuously, and at great personal inconvenience, to secure peace. He was baulked only by a cold-blooded and unscrupulous perjurer. But his name remains as that of one who strove for peace. How fervently we must wish that he could have been successful. Had he been successful, tens of millions of people in Europe would have blessed his name. But the great action at Munich—and I think it was a great action—has brought criticism. I would remind those who criticise, that Munich, at least, gave some tens of thousands of our young British boys another year of life and enabled this country to build up its armaments.
Those days are past and history will record its verdict. After the Debate of May of last year, although Mr. Chamberlain had a comfortable majority, he did not hesitate for one moment to sacrifice his great position on the altar of national unity, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who has paid him such an eloquent tribute, will agree that he never had a more loyal and unselfish colleague. Intrigue was foreign to Neville Chamberlain. We mourn him; we shall


miss him, and if I had to search for an epitaph for him it would be:
Neville Chamberlain, a selfless patriot, who gave his life to his country.

Orders of the Day — SECURITIES (VALIDATION) BILL [Lords].

Order for Second Reading read.

The Solicitor-General (Sir William Jowitt): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
I believe this to be a completely non-controversial Bill and not very difficult to explain. The matter arises in this way. By Regulation 6 of the Defence (Finance) Regulations, 1939, promulgated on 3rd September, 1939, it was declared as follows:
It shall not be lawful, except with the consent of the Treasury, to make an issue of capital in the United Kingdom.
and the phrase "issue of capital" was defined so as to include the issue of any securities. It was never intended that that Regulation should apply to the ordinary case of a mortgage as, for instance, where a man mortgages his house, and has a charge placed on his property. It is difficult, I think, to suppose that any construction could possibly treat that as being an issue of capital. None the less, early in November some very ingenious and very learned person published an article in one of the legal magazines suggesting that the ordinary mortgage might be an issue of capital within the meaning of the Regulation. He pointed out the very serious consequences which might ensue, for, if the Regulation made the transaction illegal, it did not mean merely that the parties to the transaction made themselves liable to a small fine but that the whole transaction would be unlawful, and the money which had been lent on mortgage would be irrecoverable.
Accordingly, the matter having come up in those circumstances, a further Regulation was issued on 23rd November, by which it was enacted that, as from that date, the reference to securities should include mortgages and it was further provided that a security of any nature issued without Treasury consent should not be

invalid as between the parties but that the sanction should simply be the penalty provided by the Regulation. It was hoped that that Regulation, which included mortgages in the term "securities", from and after 23rd November would make it plain that mortgages were not included in the Regulations before 23rd November. But doubt still persisted and it was pointed out, quite rightly, that Defence Regulations could not be made to have retrospective effect. The Council of the Law Society therefore requested that the matter might be referred to the opinion of the then Law Officers. I was not one of them. The Law Officers advised that the Regulation of 3rd September did not extend to mortgages, but they said there was some element of doubt and they agreed with the Law Society that that element of doubt should be cleared up.
I am asking the House to pass the Bill in all its stages here and now. It applies only to the period from 3rd September to 23rd November, and, in regard to that period, it makes it plain that ordinary mortgages or charges were never to be taken to be subject to the Regulation of 3rd September at all, that is to say, they are not to be treated as though they were issues of securities. Secondly, it makes it plain that, in regard to that period, any issue of securities, of whatever nature, is not to be avoided as being invalid as between the parties but that parties who have taken it upon themselves improperly to issue securities shall, of course, remain subject to the pains and penalties laid down by the Regulations, but the securities themselves shall not be avoided. It puts the pre-23rd November securities in exactly the same position as the post-23rd November securities, they being regulated by the later Regulation. I do not anticipate that there will be any difficulty in the House conceding the fact that we are right in clearing up this doubt and in putting the position before and after 23rd November on exactly the same footing.

Mr. Rhys Davies: I am authorised by my hon. Friends behind me to say that we have no objection to passing the Bill through all its stages. There is only one observation that I wish to make on the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech. It has always appeared to me a very strange thing that


the State chooses very eminent legal gentlemen, like the right hon. and learned Gentleman, to see that Bills are in proper order before we pass them through the House, then through Committee, then down to the House again, and every comma and semi-colon and full stop have been examined, and when we have done all that someone writes an article in a leading journal and upsets the whole business. I have come across that sort of thing on many occasions. I hope that, after passing this Bill, someone will not come along and write another article to a legal journal to say that the whole thing is wrong once again.

Mr. Bellenger: In justice to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I ought to say that it is not entirely the fault of those who have the privilege of serving as Law Officers that these mistakes occur. The whole of our Rent Act legislation has been severely criticised in the courts, but the fact remains that the matter has now been put right. I want to ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether the Government have any policy on the question of private mortgages. I understand that at present the banks are not prepared to advance any moneys on mortgage, as it is against the policy of the Government to permit mortgages, because they want the banks to lend money for purposes other than private mortgages, which are all part of the business of the nation which provides taxes for the Government to carry on. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the Government are exercising any authority over the banks to prevent private mortgages being carried out?

The Solicitor-General: With regard to the last point, I cannot embark upon it. It would be the cobbler leaving his last if I did. I have not received any instructions on the point from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor do I know what his views are, not having discussed it with him. I suggest that the hon. Member might put down a Question to my right hon. Friend. With regard to the first speech, the trouble arose not from a Bill carefully considered in Committee but from a Defence Regulation, and if only the skill and cunning of the hon. Gentleman had been let loose on the Regulation, I am sure we would have saved all this trouble. I admit that lawyers do not infrequently err. and I am afraid that for

the rest of time they will go on occasionally erring. All that we can do is to err as little as possible.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Mr. Thomas.]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee:—

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

SUPPLY.

REPORT [7TH NOVEMBER].

Resolutions reported:

CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1940.

CLASS II.

FOREIGN OFFICE.

(1) "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,500 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and grants in aid of the Royal Institute of International Affairs and the British Association for International Understanding."

CLASS III.

HOME OFFICE.

(2) "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £375,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the office of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department, subordinate offices, liquidation expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary, contributions towards the expenses of Probation and a grant in aid of the Central Committee for Refugees."

CLASS V.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

(3) "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £86,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Health including grants a grant in aid and other expenses in connection with housing, certain grants to local authorities, etc., a grant in aid to the National Radium Trust, grants in aid in respect of national health insurance benefits, etc., certain expenses in connection with


widows', orphans' and old age contributory pensions; a grant in aid of the Civil Service Sports Council; a grant in aid of camps; and other services."

First Resolution read a Second time.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): I beg to move, "That the Resolution be postponed."
I gave an undertaking in Committee that the whole matter should be reconsidered. I have had a preliminary investigation of the question with the Department concerned and with as many Members as I have been able to meet over the week-end. Unfortunately there has been no meeting of the House since and, accordingly, the opportunity for proper consultation has been limited, and the contacts that I have made have not been sufficient to assist the Government in making up their minds on the matter. I therefore propose that we should not proceed further and that it should be postponed till consideration can properly be given to it before the end of the financial year. It will not be by any means easy to produce a solution of the problem which will meet the several criticisms that were made in Committee. That is an additional reason for delaying consideration of the matter. We shall have to investigate the estimable work of this Association and see how it can best be supported. I will meanwhile carefully examine the various suggestions for financing it, which hon. Members have made or for ensuring that there is some method of supervision of the activities of the Association. I will not go into these possibilities at present, but I should like to make it crystal clear that the Government attach the greatest importance to the educational work achieved by the British Survey. I did not on the previous occasion quote these words which the Prime Minister wrote to the Association on 9th July:
I am very glad to learn that the British Association for International Understanding has decided to continue its activities, including the publication of British Surveys. I consider that the task on which it is engaged, namely, of disseminating exact and unbiased information to foreign countries, our Colonies and the Commonwealth of India, deserves the widest possible support.
I should not like public opinion to think that hon. Members and the Committee on the last occasion, by criticism which in

the circumstances may not have been in every case completely informed, have done any harm to the work of this body. In particular, I want to mention the work of education for the troops during the winter. This is a matter in which hon. Members have shown considerable interest, and it would be a thousand pities if this work, encouraged originally by the War Office and under their supervision, which has been so successful with the troops, should not be carried on and should be slighted or postponed in any way. I think, if that were so, it might possibly be against the wish of the very Members who have criticised the association. The position now is that the Government will report to the Committee in the New Year the result of our investigations into the present and future work of the association.

Mr. Noel-Baker: I think the course suggested by the Under-Secretary is the wisest for the House to follow. We should all very much regret to see anything which would damage the work of the British Association during the coming winter, and I hope this will in no way damage this work. I should myself be very happy to see public money used for this association, and I hope it will be in time to come, and I hope that the general purpose which the association has in view, education in international affairs, will be successfully carried out.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: As a critic in the original Debate, may I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his wise decision? I hope he will look at the relation of this particular work to a great many other kindred types of work which are going on in the country for a clearer exposition of objective policy on international affairs and for the enlightenment of public opinion through other educational machinery.

Mr. Mander: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has taken the wisest course in postponing the matter, and, no doubt, in the meantime he will get into touch with Members in different parts of the House who have taken an interest and expressed views on the question. He mentioned various possible ways of financing the Association. No doubt he will also be consider-


ing the views of those who thought it undesirable that any public subsidy should be given to this Association in view of the work being done by private agencies. Without expressing any final view, and wishing every encouragement to the work of the Association, I should be glad if he would make it clear that he will also consider that point.

Mr. Edmund Harvey: I very much regret that it should be necessary to postpone this Vote, although I quite recognise that, in view of what has happened, the Under-Secretary is taking the right course in making the suggestion. I believe that many Members will agree with me that although there are difficulties about the form in which this Vote is presented, we have the highest opinion of the work of this association and of its importance. We earnestly hope that means will be found to allow it to continue. There is no other association which is doing this work or is capable of doing it, and, as the Under-Secretary has said, it is of unique value as an educational service, especially for the troops. I believe that more than half the subscribers to its bulletin are members of the Forces and the largest unit among these are members of the Canadian Expeditionary Force. It is of great importance and value to many serving soldiers in isolated positions to be able to get regularly this valuable British Survey dealing with a series of public issues affecting foreign affairs, foreign countries and the British Empire in an impartial and objective way. Those who have read these surveys will feel what a great debt of gratitude we owe to those who are working in the Association to bring them out.
It has been suggested that the work might be done by Chatham House. That Institution however, has a limited membership with a subscription of £2 2S., which would rule out the mass of those who get the benefit of the British Surveys. It is far better that funds should come, at a moment of crisis to a body which has not the money for this necessary work, openly from a Government Department, so that its work can be open to the criticism of Parliament and subject to its review, rather than that it should be supplied, as it would be in many other countries, by some secret fund, or, as has been suggested, supplied by private sources.

That would mean dependence upon a few wealthy people who might consider that they had the right of controlling in some way the publications of the Association. It is far better that such control should come from the Government and be supervised ultimately by Parliament than that the organisation should depend upon the benevolence of some well-meaning millionaire who might have his own special views which he would like the Association to spread in a way that would not be in the public interest. I am glad the Under-Secretary has made it clear that he so greatly values the work of the Association and that the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), speaking for his friends, has made clear also that he values that work and desires it to continue. I believe the whole House wants the work to go on, and I hope that the step which the right hon. Gentleman has taken will make it possible for a decision to be reached which will meet the concurrence of all sides.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Although I listened to the Debate last week, I did not take part in it because I had never seen or read a copy of the British Survey. Since hearing the criticisms that were levelled at this publication I have taken the opportunity of getting some back numbers. As a result, I feel that there were some Members who took part in the Debate who had not read this journal and were not in a position to form a fair and unbiased opinion about it. I have been tremendously impressed with the value of this journal, particularly to those soldier citizens of the Empire who are now located in this country. It is just the type of publication required for those educated and thoughtful young men who are congregated in large camps in the country and who are increasingly anxious to be made aware of the reasons we are fighting and to have a knowledge about those we are fighting against. In one number of this publication there was information which explained the radiant delight of one Nazi airman who broadcast the other day in submerging the bodies of children beneath their house; it explained that outlook and the outlook of those young men who are brought up and trained in the ruthless efficiency of force. I would like the Foreign Office to carry out its original intention of supporting this Association because it would not be wise that rich


men and millionaires should out of their generosity be able to influence such a propagandist machine. I hope that when the Under-Secretary brings the matter before the House again he will not have departed from the principle which he set out last week. I hope that the Government will maintain their contribution towards this journal so that Parliament, through this contribution, will be able to keep some sort of supervision over it in order that it will never become a machine of propaganda, but will remain, as it is now, a useful contribution to the general education of our soldier citizens.

Mr. Bellenger: As one who opposed this Vote when it was before the Committee I should like to say that I have no intention of depreciating the work of this Association. I am prepared to admit, although I have not studied its literature, that it is doing excellent work. I am prepared to take the recommendation of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) in that respect. I opposed the Vote on a matter of principle. We are the protectors of the taxpayers, and we should not let such a matter go through in an odd moment without some criticism. I am glad that, as a result of such criticism, the Under-Secretary has had the wisdom to withdraw the Vote for the time being. Reference was made by the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members to the lectures given to the troops by this Association. All sorts of people give lectures to the troops and I should have thought that, if it had been primarily a matter of welfare, it would have been more appropriate to have this vote under the War Office. Do not let us be led away with all these appeals about granting public money to a body like this merely in order to give lectures to the troops.
Reference has been made to the uninformed opinion of Members who took part in the last Debate. We cannot be fully informed on every subject that comes before the House, especially a subject which was sprung upon the Committee as this was last week. There is a moral attached to that, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will do something to remedy the situation in that respect. In the interim period of gestation before we get the Vote in its final form, may I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman

should do something to put hon. Members in touch with the work of this Association so that they can be better informed? I am still of the opinion that we ought not to spend public money, even on such an excellent object as this, but I am prepared to consider the work of this Association to see whether there are other ways which have not been suggested whereby it can get this small amount. To the hon. Member who spoke about the value of this body in putting the points of view of Nazi airmen, I would say that that is the function of the public Press, which is bound to have a much wider distribution, even among our gallant troops from the Dominions, than any publications of this Association. They appeal in the main to what I may call the intellectual part of the troops. That is not confined to the commissioned ranks, and there is little opportunity for the ordinary rank and file to take advantage of these publications, with or without public money.

Mr. Butler: In response to the appeal of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), I will lay copies of the work produced by the Association in the Library so that hon. Members may have an opportunity of studying them. If they wish me to assist them to become better acquainted with the work of the Association, they have only to appeal to me and I will assist them. The hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) suggested that every possible method of getting money for this Association should be investigated. I undertake that we shall investigate every possibility of helping it. It is satisfactory to know that Parliament is exercising its undoubted right to criticise Supplementary Estimates and that the Government, I hope with wisdom, are paying attention to the wishes of Parliament. With reference to the remarks of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw, this matter might have some appearance of being rushed. In fact, however, due notice was given and the matter was put down as first Order. We devoted a considerable time to it considering the small nature of the sum, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will not press that point because there was every intention of a complete and open discussion taking place. The discussion was open, and the criticism frank, and it has been accepted in the spirit in which it was put forward.

Question, "That the First Resolution be postponed," put, and agreed to.

Postponed Resolution to be further considered upon the next Sitting Day.

Second Resolution agreed to.

Third Resolution read a Second time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

The Minister of Health (Mr. Malcolm Macdonald): The understanding was, seeing that it was impossible to have a discussion on this Vote on the Committee stage, that the matter might be raised on this stage. In spite of the fact that, as Minister of Health, I am at the moment a slight danger to public health owing to the climate, I will try to help the House by making a brief statement on the situation. I ask the House to give us this Supplementary Estimate towards one of the best pieces of constructive work which has been done in recent years. I can explain briefly the financial position under the Camps Act, 1939. The maximum expenditure authorised by the Act was £1,200,000. Of that there was allocated to England and Wales £1,032,000. We put into the Estimates for the first year, 1939–40, a sum of £946,000. Towards the end of 1939 there was a conspiracy of war and winter to delay the work somewhat. War broke out and there was a very severe winter. They both had their partial influence on the pace at which the erection of the camps went on, and at the end of the financial year we had spent only £800,000, leaving an unexpended balance of £146,000. When making up the Estimates for the next year the authorities of the day thought that all that would be required was that unexpended balance. That figure was put into the original Estimate. As a result of further experience we know that we require more than that, that we require, in fact, the whole of the rest of the balance which we can spend under the Camps Act amounting to £86,000. It is that additional amount which appears in the Supplementary Estimate.
This money is required to meet the capital cost of the camps, which have been started and to all intents and purposes completed. It is entirely accounted for by the capital costs. Those are greater than had been originally antici-

pated, for a number of reasons. When we first drew up the estimates 18 months or so ago, we had not much experience in this country of building this kind of camp, and the estimates were admittedly guesswork and turned out to be under estimates. Secondly, with the arrival of war certain of the expenses increased. The cost of materials and of labour has been much heavier for the later camps than for the camps which were started before the war. Again, with the arrival of war we had to reconsider the use to which these camps would be put. When the decision was taken that they should become residential schools, and be occupied by school children throughout the year, we had to add extra class rooms, a sick bay, and make other provisions for caring for the children during the winter months. For these reasons the capital cost has increased, and this Supplementary Estimate is required.
Let me give a sketch of the position regarding the camps at the present time. There are 31 camps, and all have been practically completed.

Mr. J. J. Davidson: In England and Wales?

Mr. MacDonald: In England and Wales. All of them have been occupied since the middle of the summer and some were occupied earlier. Of the 31, one has been let to the War Office, because it is in a situation which in present circumstances is unsuitable for school children. Another is occupied by an orphanage for girls and boys. A third is occupied by a school for crippled children, which at first had been evacuated to the coast but has since been taken away from the coast. All the other 28 camps have been let to local education authorities, and are occupied either by individual schools or by composite schools which have been created for the purpose, made up of children who have been taken from cities and towns in the evacuation areas and accommodated in the reception countryside. Those schools are not confined to London. Many of the children come from London schools, but there are also children from Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Coventry, Bradford, Leeds, Newcastle, Hull, Portsmouth, Southampton and a few other places. In these 31 camps there are at present some 6,000 boys and girls. Twenty-one of them are secondary or


senior schools, six of them are central selective schools, and one is a mixed junior school. The 6,000 children do not represent the aggregate capacity of the camps, because they are not completely filled, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education is now in touch with the local authorities to see what steps can be taken to fill the camps completely.
In brief, I would say that the general results of this camps enterprise have been wholly good. This is one of the most significant pieces of work to which Parliament has lent its hand in recent times, and we should offer our warm congratulations to the Members of the National Camps Corporation for their achievement and their success. Not only are the children in these camps more secure against the evil acts of the Nazi airmen and safer from their bombs, but they have gained other permanent benefits. The fresh natural air of the countryside has made them more healthy; contact with Nature has broadened the minds and refreshed the spirits of town children. They are healthier and better educated than they were before. One of the lessons which has been rubbed into us by our experience not only with the children in the camps but with the hundreds of thousands of other children who have gone into billets in the country is that contact with the countryside, with Nature, should be regarded as an essential part of the upbringing of the younger generation. When the war is over we ought to make adequate provision for sending town children regularly to spend a reasonable period of each year in the country. In achieving that aim these camps, and others which I hope we may be able to add to them, will play an important part. They are places where successive generations of school children can get an enrichment of their bodies, minds and spirits which will enable them, in their day, to maintain the highest traditions of a race which has always drawn much of its strength from the lovely countryside of the land of its birth.

Sir Robert Tasker: As I understand that the designing and arranging of these camps has been a labour of love by professional men and by men like my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), is not this an opportune moment to express the grati-

tude of this House to those who have done good service on behalf of this project?

Mr. MacDonald: I said a word congratulating the members of the National Camps Corporation. Perhaps I should have extended it to cover everyone who has been engaged in this enterprise; but those to whom my hon. Friend refers are so much in the debt of the nation, not only for this but for all sorts of other activities, that I thought it was almost unnecessary to make a special mention of them, but I gladly do so.

Mr. Hicks: I am sorry that I was not present when the Minister was making his statement about the camps, but I had been called out and was unable to hear all that he had to say. I was particularly pleased with the latter part of his speech, when he said that he was satisfied that the camps had been a success and hoped later to be able to extend them and to give greater facilities for camp life. I think it only fair to hon. Members who are not too familiar with the setting up of these camps to give a brief history of their start and of some of the difficulties which the National Camps Corporation had to encounter. When the Corporation was set up I was invited by the Minister of Health to sit on the Board. The real purpose of the camps was that in peace time they should be school camps for children during the major part of the year and used for adults in the winter months, and, in time of war, for refugees.
The camps were initiated by the then President of the Board of Education, Lord De La Warr. He called together a small committee representative of various Departments to examine and report upon a proposal to set up these camps. That was in January, 1939. In February, 1939, the then Home Secretary announced that the Government had decided to proceed with the erection of a number of camps and would entrust the work to two non-profit earning companies, one for England and Wales and the other for Scotland, and that the companies would be set up and financed by the Government. In March, 1939, Lord Portal was announced as the chairman of the company for England and Wales. The composition of the National Camps Corporation was announced on the Second Reading of the Bill in March, 1939. In April,


1939, the Board had its first meeting. We were fortunate in getting upon the Board Mr. Patrick Abercrombie, a very competent gentleman, Dr. Gurney-Dixon, a great educationist with a good deal of medical knowledge, Dame Florence Simpson, who has had a lot of experience of camps, Mr. Percy Thomas, who is an ex-President of the Royal Institute of British Architects, the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), who was there to give them courage and comfort, I suppose, and Sir Edward Howarth, who was the managing director. He is an excellent managing director, a first-class man giving signal service to the Board.
The Camps Act was passed in May, 1939. It provided a sum of £1,200,000, for the construction, maintenance and management of the camps. The share of England and Wales was £1,032,000. Of that, £860,000 was to be spent upon the construction of the camp, and £172,000 was for working capital. That division was not made statutory, although it was generally understood that that was how the money should be divided. It was estimated by the Government that the capital would be sufficient for 43 camps in England and Wales, but that estimate was largely guess-work, because there was no reliable data, and I think also, that the type of camp which the Department had in mind at the time would not have been suitable as a school camp. They had in their minds something rather on the lines of Army huts-long huts with asbestos roofing; but that would have been wholly unsuitable for camps for children.
The number of camps constructed in England and Wales is 31. The reason why we were not able to get 43 was that closer acquaintance with the matter showed that the Government's estimate of £20,000 per camp was too low. The camps were much more costly than the Camps Corporation originally estimated. In addition, the Ministry of Health were asking for additional facilities to be added to the camps. Moreover, military camps were being built in various places in this country. No doubt hon. Members recall the furore about the speed with which they were created and many questions were asked in this House with regard to cost and other aspects of that matter. An investigation was made subsequently into a number of cases, and even to-

day the criticisms have not died down. The fact that those military camps were being constructed at the same time attracted material and labour from the camps with which I am dealing, and did not conduce to the normal course of procedure which would have been pursued by the Camps Corporation.
Owing to the advances which took place in the prices of materials and labour after the outbreak of war, the estimate of the Camps Corporation of what was originally a fair cost of construction rose to more than £20,000. It became clear that, owing to the war, the camps were likely to be of a permanent nature, and it was then decided by the Ministry of Health that additional classrooms and other improvements should be made to all camps. There is quite a need for additional accommodation in the camps. The Minister of Health is not unfamiliar with those needs and I hope that we shall be able to get sympathetic consideration with regard to giving us additional money to enable us to carry them out. In order that sites might be found as quickly as possible, the Government arranged for their chief valuer and staff district valuers to render us all possible help. That was of great assistance to the Camps Corporation because the Government valuer was able to go round and look at land, select a site, value it and give us the estimated cost of purchase.
We all regarded it as essential that sites should have a piped water supply whenever possible. We did not want to have to start sinking our own wells. We also hoped that electric light and power would be reasonably near. Most of the sites had sufficient fall in themselves to permit of the installation of an individual sewage system. The camps that we have had to purchase have been well away from the towns and the main sewage systems. We have, of course, had to go out into the country to select sites, and we have been able to establish our own individual sewage system where it was not possible to connect up with the main drainage. Particulars of the sites selected by the district valuers were sent to the Camps Corporation. Each site was then visited by the chairman or managing director. When a site had been approved by the Corporation the Ministry of Health were informed, and one of its inspectors viewed it and reported to the Ministry. The Ministry has


the duty of approving the site and no site could be approved without its sanction. Before giving its final approval, the Ministry of Health had to consult the Board of Education, the Ministry of Transport, the Home Office, the Ministry of Agriculture, the Office of Works and local town planning authorities. All those Government offices and authorities were able to forward objections to any site. We lost more than one site because of the objections that were put forward, many of them frivolous. Delay occurred between the time when the objections were raised and when we were able to approve a site, but this is our democratic system of going round and giving everybody a chance of sticking his nose in.
The choice of sites was far from easy. We were instructed to place our camps not more than 35 miles from London or from the centre of a town. We found that various Service Departments were purchasing sites for the purpose of constructing camps and of carrying out military works of a very important nature. No one wanted to enter into competition with them. We were able to persuade the authorities to let us have a larger radius, which was eventually settled as from 40 to 45 miles from evacuable towns, Before the 32 sites were approved by the Corporation, 183 were visited by the managing director. Each site was carefully examined before it was decided to purchase. Twenty of our camps were purchased on the recommendation of the valuers' department and 12 were secured by contract by the Corporation. One site has not been built upon, but we shall be happy to do so when we have the money and the materials.
As we get older we get mellower, I suppose, and institutions that used at one time to have the effect usually referred to as waving a red rag to a bull and used to excite all sorts of objections, affect us somewhat differently. I would like to pay tribute to two Members of the House of Lords. We did not know they were so useful. They gave us two sites. One of these generous donors was Lord Portal, who gave us a very beautiful site on which to construct a camp about 20 acres in size, at Lords-field, near Overton, in Hampshire. We were given a site in Ashdown Forest by Lord De La Warr. The cost of

the sites averaged about £1,725 and the area averaged from 18 acres to 54 acres. We were aiming to get no sites smaller than 20 acres, in order to construct a camp and give amenities for recreation. The average cost of the land was about £60 per acre. We were particularly careful to avoid choosing any arable or grassland and so to injure agriculture. Of necessity the Board had not to enter into competition with the Ministry of Agriculture by purchasing land that might be better employed in providing food for the nation.
On the building side of the matter we were able to have the assistance of Sir John Burnet, of Messrs. Tate and Lorne, as our consulting officer. Eventually we got Mr. Tate of that firm. I think he was the architect of the Glasgow Exhibition and he designed our camps in the first instance. We decided to have them so designed that they could be taken from the site and re-erected. In the design of the camps he rendered us very signal service. The whole of the work has been done by competitive tender, both before and after the outbreak of war. I do not understand the experience of those who say they were unable to get tenders for the construction of camps because we could easily do so. After the outbreak of war we were able to get as many as 20 tenders from capable and responsible firms, many of whom I know myself and who were able to construct camps for us.
Each camp has been designed to accommodate about 350 children and 13 teachers in peace-time, but the camps are so laid out that they can be doubled if necessary in an emergency. The first camp was completed early in October, 1939, and nine were completed by the end of June this year. All the 31 were arranged to be constructed by the end of March of this year. We had unexpected delays in securing the release of materials, owing to the various war controls. We were not entering into much competition with other Departments, especially where timber was concerned, because the camps were constructed of red cedar, also for the shingles, instead of the ordinary asbestos. The architect whom we consulted and who was responsible for laying out the sites in various parts of the country testified to the beauty of the camps. We have been employing a


series of architects, many of them local, and we have had very much in mind the necessity of harmonising the camps with their surroundings. We have been able to get a good and cheap job which fitted in with the environment and was not in the least ugly. That is one of the benefits of having more competent men on the board. Building operations generally were slowed down by the exceptionally heavy winter that we had last year. For several months it was almost impossible to do work on the outside.
Our agreement provides that, in time of war, the camps shall be placed at the disposal of the Government. Accordingly, in September of this year, the Ministry of Health were asked to determine for what type of person it was desired that the camps should be used, whether adults or children. A good deal of time was occupied in making that decision. Further time was occupied in deciding the proper age limits of these people. No doubt that was all very necessary, but it seemed to us that a lot of time was taken up that might have been short-circuited. Then there had to be a circular to education authorities. A description of the camps was given, and the authorities were asked for their observations. Hon. Members know how education authorities react; you do not get your reply immediately. In fact, the response was very slow indeed. I do not know whether the Minister of Health recalls the general layout of these camps, but hon. Members will he interested to know that there are dining hall, kitchen block, assembly hall, class block and hospital with seven beds, dispensary, and other necessary amenities. There is domestic staff accommodation, and quarters for transport. There is a bungalow and a boiler house. The needs of everybody have been very well catered for. If any hon. Member has not seen one of these camps we should be very happy if he would go and look at them.
In addition to the camps manager and staff, there are those who attended to all details of meals, which was important, so far as the children were concerned. I should like to pay my tribute to Miss Langley of the Board of Education for her very valuable help as meals inspector and her assistance in arranging the dietary and meals for the children. The educational side necessarily rests with the

headmasters and headmistresses and does not come under the Camps Corporation. A good deal of the equipment and other such matters had to be directly under the headmasters and headmistresses. On the medical side, arrangements were made by the Ministry of Health with the British Medical Association, and suitable arrangements have been entered into which meet the requirements of the Ministry of Health and of the British Medical Association.
I would like to say this in order to show that the headquarters are not squandering the money which Parliament has granted, but that they are trying to utilise it to the best possible end. Salaries, rent, rates, stationery, etc., and travelling for eight persons amounted to just over £6,000. The total sum dealt with during the year was £8,900, and therefore the administrative expenses were just under 2d. in the £ so far as the camps were concerned. I must apologise to the House for going so much into detail with regard to this matter, but it has been very interesting work, and I was very honoured to serve upon the board. We have been doing the best we could to facilitate the construction of the camps. We believed that good national work had to be done, and we believe that it is an example which the country would like carried on further. We would like Parliament and the country to be as sympathetic as they can in regard to granting money, not only that full equipment may be given to the camps but that other camps may be built.

Mr. Mander: I am sure the House has been very interested in the first-hand details which my hon. Friend has just given about these camps. As he truly says, a great national work of permanent value to the children has been done, and it will find a permanent place in the life of the nation. I have had an opportunity of visiting some of these camps in Staffordshire, and I was very favourably impressed with the spirit, the siting and the attractive appearance of the camps themselves. The cedar tiles to which my hon. Friend has referred are a very attractive feature of the camps. It has been a great opportunity for the children and others who have gone to these pleasant country scenes, far away from the troubles of the war in most cases.
The action of the Government a year or so ago in taking the initiative and


instituting the camps has, I am sure, been fully justified. The problem is quite different, though, from what was originally intended. These are not holiday camps for a fortnight. They are not camps for whole families. They are camps for schools without holidays, because I imagine the children stay there all the time, and it would not be thought desirable to encourage them to go back home to certain areas during the holiday periods. They are public schools without holidays. I think it took the Government Departments concerned—the Ministry of Health and the Board of Education—a long time to get together and make up their minds exactly what they were going to do with these camps. However, they have now got over that. We have had an interesting account from my right hon. Friend who said that 31 camps have been occupied to a considerable extent and that steps have been taken to see whether they cannot be more fully occupied. I am sorry that the War Office had to take over one. I do not know whether that could have been avoided by more forethought at the time when the planning was being done. I am glad, at any rate, that the Bank of England have evacuated one of the camps. They ought never to have been allowed to go there at all; it is certainly no place for them.
There is one point that I would like to make about the organisation of the camps, and that is with regard to the administration. It seems to me that a considerable, and perhaps unnecessary, expense has been involved in having a teacher with all the head teacher's qualifications and responsibility, and also a catering manager who is also a highly responsible and well-paid person. It seems to me that a good deal depends upon the personality of these individuals as to which one at any particular camp is really the dominating personality and takes control of affairs, in particular, after school hours. I should have thought that you could do one of two things. You might have a welfare officer in charge of the whole camp, with a proper matron, possibly his wife, who would be responsible for the catering and looking after the administration of the nursing. That welfare officer would also be responsible for all the activities of the children after school hours. In that case the role of the teacher would be purely during school hours, as is the case

at school at the present time in a town. That is one way of doing it, and I fancy that it works out in that way under certain conditions at the moment. The alternative is to have a teacher in full charge, with a matron who again would be responsible for the catering and looking after the nursing side. I cannot see the necessity for having two rather important personalities on the staff. The authorities should make up their minds as to which of the two they will delegate the responsibility, and having done that let him have full charge, and underneath him and responsible to him there should be people who are able to do work of the kind which I have indicated. I feel that there is a certain unnecessary conflict and possibly waste of money at the moment in the way some of these camps are being run. It may have been altered by now, but that is the impression which I got.
I also feel that in cases where the teacher takes full charge and looks after the children after school hours—they are there together, all the time, day and night—he ought to receive some extra remuneration other than what is paid to a teacher in a town who merely has to look after the children during school hours. I do not know whether anything of the kind is contemplated, but it is quite a different problem from the usual class of a teacher. It may be said that there are countervailing advantages, that he is away in the country, that he is not subject to bombing and that kind of thing, but perhaps my hon. Friend in replying will be able to deal with that point and the others which I have raised. I would only say in conclusion that I am very glad that the Minister gave some indication in his speech that the Government, profiting by the successful result of the camps that have already been built, are thinking of building more, and I hope it will not be very long before they come to this House with a further estimate for a substantial sum to enable them to build similar camps in other parts of the country.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: I should like to say a few words, particularly because of the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks). He told us a great deal about the bricks and mortar—although there is not much in the way of bricks and mortar in the case of a camp. He told us about the construction and lay-


out. It was interesting to hear of the valuable work which the Camps Corporation have done, and I think that the composition of that Corporation is eminently suited for construction work. I well remember a Debate in this House—the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) and other hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health and the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) took part—which was a conspiracy to get a member of the town planning profession on this board, and they got him on. Anyone who has seen the excellent choice of sites which has been made by the Camps Corporation must feel that the inclusion of that gentleman on the board was fully justified.
In the history which the hon. Member for East Woolwich gave he did not tell the whole story. The origin of these camps, like everything else in an adventure, was rather due to one or two people with strong ideas, and in this case there were those who saw in the prospect of camp schools a possible advance in educational experiment in this country. I myself never thought that they had very much use for evacuation, because we had to build for six years in order to make any impression on the evacuation problem. Even then I am not quite sure it is such a good thing for a reception area to have an open camp. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, this is an educational experiment, and I resent, not on any petty grounds of machinery of Government belonging to one departmentalist, but because the very nature of this work is educational, that it should be under the Ministry of Health. I do not think that there would be any great quarrel with changing over Departments; I do not think there is very much in it. It was part of the general evacuation policy, and quite naturally fell under the Ministry of Health, and the Board of Education had its place in the scheme. Indeed, the manager of the Corporation is the late Deputy Secretary of the Board of Education.
But there is more to it than that. These are not the first camp schools in this country. There is a very considerable experience in local education authorities in the direction of camp schools. They have been built for many years, and I suppose there were many thousands of children who used to go to these camps long before the Camps Corporation was invented. They are part of a definite

machinery in each local authority. They are partly for children who are sickly or weak, but also partly for perfectly normal children who are taken into the country for a period of two weeks, four weeks or a summer term. These camps have relation to the local authority, the borough, the over-urbanised areas; they are part of the local education policy of a borough. I am not sure that it would not be a good idea to regionalise them, because joint authorities could easily provide a camp and possibly share in it.
That is the history of what happened in the case of these camps; it is no secret to say that it was very largely "First come, first served." I know of authorities which did not hear about the camp until later; perhaps in some cases they were a little slack, so that those who were enterprising got in first. The result has been, as I think my right hon. Friend will be aware, that it is the enterprising schools which are using the camps. The difficulties and delays which hon. Members have referred to in regard to the submission of proposals to the local education authorities by the Ministry of Health and the Board of Education were partly due to the fact that there were two departments of State responsible. If the Camps Corporation had been able to report directly to the Board of Education, the whole machinery for dealing with other camps would have been made available, the necessary knowledge would have been at hand, and the local authorities could have been consulted through the regular channels.
This is a revolution in British education, or at least opens up revolutionary prospects. Think what we are doing; we are giving poor children the chance of a boarding school education. Every problem associated with the question is an educational problem. Why should my right hon. Friend, in addition to the score of other problems with which he is faced today and many of which are crying for his attention, now have to give time for this particular question? It may be said that the question of whom the Camps Corporation report to is a small point. I think it is a big point. I know personally the interest which has been taken in this question by my hon. Friend who is going to reply, and I think it would be more in keeping with his wish if he were to be in charge. Week by week he could follow the weights and measures


of the children. I hope the records are being very carefully kept; it was difficult at first because previous records were not available from some of the schools and because composite classes, composed of children from different schools, were made up in the camps. Now, however, I hope that accurate records of height and weight are being kept throughout the camps, along with details of the dietary systems. Such possibilities as that the camps may be partially self-supporting from the school garden should also be borne in mind. These are all first-class educational problems. For instance, how can you keep teachers in these camp schools under present conditions, without giving them greater leisures? After all, the housemaster at a boarding school has certain facilities for his own leisure; he has a house of his own, very often his wife is there to help him, and a long tradition of experience has grown up about it. The camp masters, in the early days, lived day and night with the boys; they never got away from them, and it was only at a later stage that rooms were added, including a common room, where the masters could meet and could at any rate have a little time on their own. Indeed, my right hon. Friend said in his opening remarks that one of the reasons for the increased costs was that the camps had had to be adapted as schools. If that is not an educational problem, I do not know what is. In whatever way we look at it, this is primarily a problem for the Board of Education and the local authorities.
I would like to ask my hon. Friend to deal, in his reply, with one or two straightforward questions. I would like to ask whether, while the "Blitzkrieg" is going on, the children will live there the whole time. That will bring up problems connected with the relief of teachers. I would also like to ask how children are being recruited for the camps as they come of age? Also, why are the camps not full? I should have thought that they would be, but is there a reason why they are not? If they were a little more closely related to the education authorities, perhaps they might be fuller. What the reason is I do not know, but my hon. Friend did say that they were not quite full.
Another question I should like to ask—perhaps it is a little early yet, but I hope my hon. Friend will watch the point—is, How will the camps stand up to the winter? It is all very well in summer; I visited a large number of these camps in spring and summer and saw the children there. I was immensely struck by the possibilities of extending this experiment and I hope that the experience that the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) had in the early days, of delays caused by having to deal with several Government Departments, will in future be avoided by the transference of responsibility, when the time comes, directly to the Board of Education. I hope my right hon. Friend does not feel that I am over-stressing the point. How can he spare time, from all his multifarious duties, to talk about such an educational experiment, although he may be tremendously interested in it? The Corporation had a constructive job—draining the sites and so on, the ordinary sort of job that any local education authority has to do time after time in building schools. We do not need to make too much of that; it has been well done, and we now have plenty of experience to work on. The important thing about these camp schools now is the use to which they are to be put.
I do not believe that these camps should be used for adults; so long as there are adolescents and children for them, they should come first. Would my hon. Friend say that if, by any chance, the camps are empty, they may be used by the Youth Service Movement about which a circular has been issued by the Board of Education this week? They might well, it seems to me, be used by clubs and other bodies even in war-time. Some of us are trying to inaugurate a movement whereby lads between 14 and 18 go out into the country at week-ends-from Saturday noon until first thing Monday morning—because sleeping in shelters is not a very pleasant life. If these camps could be used, in addition to the schools, by such boys—perhaps as guests—they might camp out, not in winter, but certainly as soon as spring comes. I think one of the essential uses always visualised for these camps was that they could be utilised by adolescents and by clubs of various kinds. I am very glad that my right hon.


Friend hinted that there might be an extension of their use.

Mr. David Adams: I should like to offer my congratulations to the Minister of Health for the statement he made under, probably, some considerable personal disability. Nevertheless, that statement, by indicating the mind of the Government in this matter, shows that a very considerable advance with regard to the necessity for and the virtue of these camp schools is apparent to the mind of the Government, since those who heard the debates which took place when the idea was first put forward will know the extremely qualified opinion which the predecessor of the present Minister of Health held in regard to the camp school movement. Now, the general expression of opinion from him and from other Members, is that this is an innovation which is certainly going to stay and which is of great national value at the present time. I am disappointed to learn, however, that only some 6,000 children are so far accommodated. We were advised that there would be an average of at least 330 children in each of the camps and that this—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Clifton Brown): I think I should warn the hon. Member that it seems to me that he is now going into the whole policy. I have allowed the Debate to be very wide, but this is a Vote of £86,000 only, a Supplementary Vote on the administration and not on the policy.

Mr. Adams: I only desired to traverse a little of the ground already covered by other speakers. It is important that if additional money is to be granted to this experiment, it should be fully utilised. From my experience of the benefit that children have derived from this country life, one cannot speak too highly of the way in which the movement has affected their health, their general outlook and their standing in the community. The fact that we are converts to this movement indicates a growth of faith in it, and I am not certain that much more can be said unless we stress the value of additional camps.
During the Debates in the House on evacuation, many Ministers have extolled the virtue of life in the country for evacuated children. It was pointed out that the opportunity of country life was now open to very large sections of our

population. This departure means that those who had no possibility of obtaining a public school education, with all its advantages, have now this opportunity for the first time. If the Government are converted to that point of view, we may certainly feel, as has been said by the ex-Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, that this is indeed a revolution. For that reason I am glad to support the adoption of the Estimate, and to support this great movement in education.

Mr. Price: I wish to raise one short point, dealing only with administration. The figure upon which we are asked to vote is, in my opinion, far too small in view of the problems which are going to be raised in the future by the evacuation of school children to the country. I already see—and I am sure it is going to develop still further—the growth of overcrowding in the rural schools in areas to which first one district and then another evacuate their children. What we require is something very much bigger than this. When this matter was first discussed it seemed that the policy of dispersal for our urban populations, particularly of the children, would be one of the means by which we should deal with air raids. That has certainly come about. Official and unofficial evacuation is going on, and rural schools are becoming overcrowded everywhere. I want to see school camps dotted about everywhere that evacuation is taking place on a large scale.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is far removed from the Supplementary Estimate before the House.

Mr. Price: I was most meticulously trying to keep in order. I was merely protesting against the smallness of the figure, and giving my reasons.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: One has to confine oneself to what is in the Supplementary Estimate. One cannot discuss what one would like to sec in it.

Mr. Price: I am sorry. My intention was to keep strictly within your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I can only say that, like Oliver Twist, I want more. I have given my reasons, and I am sorry that I was not in order.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Ede): I am sure my right hon. Friend will be gratified


at the course which the Debate has taken. The House generally, like the hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price), feels that this policy has been so successful, within its limits, that it might be extended. We are very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), not only for the account he has given of the work of the Camps Corporation, but for the great amount of interest he has taken in that work, especially on those matters of which he has practical experience. His efforts have been of great value. I spent the hours vouchsafed to me last night in reading the Debates on this subject last year, when I was on the opposite side and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay) had to defend the policy of the Government. I was exceedingly anxious to say nothing to-day that was inconsistent with what I then said, and I was pleased to observe the careful way in which I had safeguarded my communications to the rear. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock might have read his speeches again before making a lot of the suggestions he has made to-day. I would like to bring this point clearly before the House. As far as the educational work in the country is concerned, the Board of Education is, and always has been, supreme. From the moment the camps begin to be occupied, they come under the Board of Education; our inspectors visit them and advise on the educational problems that arise, and we carry on just as if they were ordinary schools.

Mr. Mander: Does that apply to the catering, too?

Mr. Ede: Yes. I was coming to the speech of the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) shortly, but, since he has interrupted, I might say this. One of the great advantages of the present arrangement is that supplies are purchased nationally in bulk. That is an advantageous way of dealing with the very difficult problem of supplies in these areas. I agree with the hon. Member for Kilmarnock—and I emphasised this last year—that here we are really dealing with a great opportunity for an advance in practical educational developments in this country. The work in these camps, I think, has fully justified the opportunities that have been afforded to the teachers. In last week's Educational Supplement to the "Times" there was

a reference to the magnificent work done in the camp at Cranleigh, to which the hon. Member went and told the boys that they would "soon be introduced to all the local birds"—to the great terror of all the local mothers. The first paragraph of the article in the "Times" Educational Supplement will give an idea of what has been done in this camp, and of the possibilities that are open to the others. It says:
The first prize in the town and countryside competition organised by the 1940 Council has been awarded to the Elmbridge Camp School at Cranleigh (the Loxford non-selective Central School for Boys, Ilford), which has carried out an elaborate survey of the district and produced a pageant telling the story, in nine scenes, of Cranleigh, from the time of the Romans to the present day.
The ninth scene shows the arrival of the boys themselves at the camp; and they regarded that as being not less important than any of the other eight scenes. Among the things that this school has done has been the preparation of a model of the parish of Cranleigh, on a scale of 10 feet to the mile, reproducing, as far as possible, appropriately to scale all the buildings, trees and other landmarks in the neighbourhood. They have conducted a social survey, from which they have reached this not very remarkable conclusion: that the people of Cranleigh desire it to remain a village, but that they desire to have all the amenities of a town, without sacrificing any rural amenities. I would suggest to hon. Members who get a chance of visiting the newspaper room that they should take the opportunity to look at last week's Educational Supplement to the "Times," which gives some idea of what can be done when teachers with imagination take advantage of the opportunities presented to them in these camps.
I do not share the misgivings expressed with regard to local education authorities in this matter. I think that one of their difficulties has been to select the right type of teacher. I know some of the shortcomings of my own profession. We want to send to these camps people who are not too experienced and successful in the old ways of running a school. We should send somebody reasonably young, who is not afraid even of making a mistake, and of then wiping out the mistake and making a fresh start. In this matter, I would suggest, the local education authorities should take particular care in


the selection of the individual teacher. In reply to both the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock, I would say that the arrangement at present is that the recompense to the teachers for the extra duties imposed upon them takes the form of making no charge for their board and lodging in the camps. With regard to spare time, that is a matter best left to the staffs of the schools to arrange for themselves. The schools are staffed with quite reasonable generosity, having regard to the ordinary staffing of schools in the country, and it should be possible for them to arrange on-duty and off-duty times in a way which will not inflict undue hardship on any of them. Of course, these schools are being used as part of the evacuation scheme. It is hoped that the children, as the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton said, will stay there as if they were at a public school with no holidays. It would be clearly wrong to bring them back to the suburbs of London at the present time. One must contemplate that this winter the camps will be in continuous occupation.

Mr. Lindsay: Will that apply to the North, to Manchester and elsewhere?

Mr. Ede: I think so. I spent a couple of nights in Liverpool recently, and it was not much different from being in London. I imagine that the arrangement will apply generally. Every effort will be made to persuade parents to leave children in the camps during the whole of the normal Christmas holiday period. There was some return of the children from the camps as winter approached; but the Board and the local education authorities are trying to persuade the parents to send the children back—or, where that is not possible, to recruit fresh children for the camps. At the moment it is perhaps the least gratifying of the things I have to say that the demand for places in the camps has not been so great as to make any selective process necessary. But we would desire to recruit children of over 11. Experience, so far, has shown that the children under 11 are not quite as suitable. The incidence of juvenile illnesses is far heavier among the under-11's than among the over-11's. We do not yet know how the camps will stand up to winter. We have had only a few days of real winter so far. The magnificent October and November that we have had

so far are really only an extension of summer. I hope that next year we shall be able to use the sites of the camps for the youth movement, as was originally contemplated last year, While we shall not have buildings available, we hope that it may be possible to arrange for tents or some other accommodation, so that the youth movements of the towns may use these sites. I hope the hon. Member will feel that the Board of Education really have sufficient control over the educational part of these camps. Once the camps are built they are handed over to the local education authorities, and they come completely under the Board of Education.
I think I have answered the real point put to me by the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. David Adams). These camps were originally designed for schools that would visit them for a fortnight or a month. In those circumstances it would have been possible to accommodate a substantially larger number of children at a time than is the case when we have to regard the camps as places where children will be in permanent residence for 12 months in a year. The average number in a camp is well under 300, and I do not think that a full-time camp for 12 months in a year could accommodate more children. With regard to the plea made by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton, that certain additional amenities should be provided, I am assured that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is fully in accord with that view, and that at the moment it is not so much the shortage of money as the shortage of materials that is a hindrance to our providing some of the additional rooms. If the material becomes available, both the Ministry of Health and the Board of Education are so pleased with the results of the experiment up to date that nothing will be left undone to ensure that those in charge of the camps shall have the fullest opportunity of extending the experiment along all legitimate lines.

Mr. Mander: Would my hon. Friend mind dealing with the point that I raised, as to whether there is not some unnecessary duplication in having both a head teacher and a high-grade catering manager as well?

Mr. Ede: I apologise for overlooking that point. My own view is that one


has to take into account the personnel that will be required in these camps. The head teachers of elementary schools and even of the ordinary non-residential municipal and county schools have not been trained in catering. Neither has the catering manager been trained in the duties of a head teacher. I do not know which would be more disastrous, to have the head teacher doing the catering or to have the catering manager supervising the duties of the head teacher. The information we have is that in the camps arrangements are being made between the catering managers and the head teachers which will secure the best of food and the best of teaching. I do not think that at the moment we can adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member that there should be a subordination of one of these people to the other. I imagine that where the personality of the head teacher is the stronger he may perhaps exercise a little more influence over the feeding than is desirable, and it may even be that, in certain cases where the catering manager has a strong personality, he would exercise a little more influence over the teaching than is desirable. But I am assured by those in close touch with these camps that no practical difficulty has at the moment arisen, and I should be reluctant myself to give any pledge that the Board of Education would consider altering the present arrangements.
It may, of course, be that, if these camps become greater in number and a more permanent feature of our education system, we might evolve a kind of elementary head teacher who would be capable of supervising the catering department as well. At the moment those who would be prepared to stand up for the teaching profession—and I see Members who, like myself, left the profession no doubt for the profession's good in days gone by—would be the first to say that at the moment it would be imposing upon the teaching profession a burden which it could not be expected to bear if you asked them, in addition to looking after 200 children, to take on the job of catering for them.

Mr. McEntee: I wish to offer some little criticism, which I desire to be helpful. I have had experience of only one of these camps, and I cannot speak at all of the other camps. I agree with all that I have heard in

favour of these camps, and, as an experiment, they are doing exceptionally good work, which, I hope, will continue to improve. I want to offer a few suggestions for that improvement, and I hope that some consideration will be given to them. As I have said, I speak with knowledge of only one camp—the Finnamore Wood Camp. The Education Committee in the town that I represent contemplated in the early days sending the Central School children at Walthamstow, and they sent over the Director and Deputy-Chairman of the committee, but they decided not to take the camp unless certain improvements were made. Other schools went there later, and whether they are satisfied or not, I am not in a position to say.
I think that that school camp is overcrowded. There are too many children there. The beds are too close together in the dormitories, much closer than the Minister of Health would be prepared to allow in other circumstances and in respect of other people. The accommodation, particularly for the girls, is not sufficient in respect of lockers. When building future camps consideration should be given to that point. The lockers should be made larger, and the amount of extra timber required would comparatively be so small that I am sure that the Timber Control would not make any trouble about it. There is only one lavatory attached to each dormitory. That is altogether insufficient and would not be permitted at other places where large numbers of people sleep in dormitories. It might be said that because they are children they do not require the same accommodation as adults, but I have no hesitation in saying that children require not less, but more accommodation at night than adults. It is possible for the children to go to lavatories away from the dormitories, but I do not think that it would be suggested that children should have to get up at night and leave the dormitories, particularly in winter. I suggest that at any rate there should be an increase in the lavatory accommodation in any future camp buildings.
Why on earth were the baths built away from the sleeping accommodation without any covered approach from the dormitories? Why anybody with any knowledge of building or of institutions should do a thing like that passes my compre-


hension. Children have to go outside, some 15 yards away from the building, in order to use the baths. There ought to be a covered way to the baths, or the baths ought to be attached to the building. There is an ample number of baths but they are all, with one exception, shower baths, and I do not think that shower baths are suitable, particularly for girls. I do not object to shower baths, but there ought to be more slipper baths made available for both boys and girls.
Reference has been made to the provision of accommodation for practical work for the boys and girls. There are no science rooms. It would have been better to have arranged four class-rooms, with not more than 200 children, and to have set aside two of the class-rooms for use for other purposes, including the practical work to which the hon. Member referred. There should be accommodation for practical handwork such as is available in the ordinary schools. I know that these camps were originally intended to be used as holiday camps, for which purpose they would have been excellent, but it is q site different when children are there permanently and are supposed to undergo their ordinary school-room curriculum. Therefore, the accommodation ought to be, approximately, equal to that in the towns from which they have come. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would suggest for a moment that the curriculum carried on in the central or senior schools in towns could possibly be carried out in view of the number of children in this camp, and the accommodation provided. I am sure my hon. Friend will be pleased to give some consideration to the profession which he thinks is better off because he has left it. I do not think that it is better off. The profession miss him, and if he were in the profession—though I think he is doing very well where he is—he would really be much better off serving the profession by giving his time to the teaching which he left. The teaching accommodation at the camp is bad. It would not be tolerated for five minutes in a well-organised town. Better provision ought to be made for teachers. I say this in a desire to help and not in order to criticise. Consideration should be given to these points and if improvement cannot be made in existing camps it ought to be made in future camps

Mr. Ede: I can only speak again by leave of the House, but I would like to say one or two sentences in reply to my hon. Friend. These are not schools first; they are camps first. All the criticisms that he has made must be viewed in the light of that consideration. We have no desire to give in these schools what he rightly calls the school-room curriculum. The whole burden of my remarks, and the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Lindsay), was to welcome these opportunities for studying, on quite new lines, a good many educational problems, and so far from regarding many of the things that he mentions as disadvantages, I regard them as great advantages because they compel teachers to pick out first principles.

Mr. McEntee: They were built for school camps in which to give the children a fortnight's holiday, but they are being used now during the period of the war, and the Prime Minister himself indicated that we may still be fighting in the war in 1945. In view of that fact, it is absurd to talk of the school camps now as if they were only camps and not schools. They are schools, and may last for years.

Mr. Ede: What my hon. Friend has said makes no impression upon me at all. I still believe that these buildings are as good as could have been constructed in the circumstances. I have no doubt that some things can be improved on in future buildings, but I would not like to hold out to him any hope that we propose to erect in these camps the ordinary type of school buildings. I know of one headmaster who turned down a school camp because, he said, he could not be given an art room with a north light. He was being provided with 30 or 40 acres of the finest scenery in England and he had no idea of teaching art other than taking it in a closed room. The whole idea of these camps is to get away from that conception altogether. I know that some people have turned down these camps, but I cannot help thinking that the children on whose behalf they were turned down, have been infinitely the losers.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY.

REPORT. [6TH NOVEMBER.]

Resolution reported,

CIVIL ESTIMATES, SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1940.

CLASS V.

SUPPLEMENTARY PENSIONS.

"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £11,200,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, for the payment, of Supplementary Pensions to certain persons in receipt of Old Age Pensions or Widows' Pensions, and for certain administrative expenses in connection therewith"

Resolution agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS.

REPORT. [7TH NOVEMBER.]

Resolution reported,
That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, the sum of £1,011,663,500 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Captain Crookshank.]

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Colonel Clifton Brown): I have to read out the following: I understand that, by an oversight, a discrepancy has occurred between the sum voted last week in Committee of Ways and Means and the corresponding sums voted in Committee of Supply. The sum voted in the Committee of Ways and Means includes authority for the Supplementary Vote of Credit for which sanction has already been obtained by the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill. It is my duty to see that the figures for Supply and Ways and Means correspond, and accordingly an Amendment will be required for this purpose before the Ways and. Means Resolution is agreed to.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): I beg to move, to leave out "£1,011,663,500," and to insert instead thereof "£11,661,000."
I will add for the information of the House that this sum which I propose should be inserted, takes account not only of the necessity for omitting the £1,000,000,000 to which you have referred, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but also a grant of £2,500, which is a Supplementary Grant for the Foreign Office, proposed in Committee of Supply, with which it has been decided not to proceed at present.

Amendment agreed to.

Resolved,
That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941, the sum of £11,661,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.

Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolution by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Captain Crookshank.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) (No. 2) BILL,

"to apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and forty-one, and appropriate the further Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed. [Bill 89.]

COAST PROTECTION ACT, 1939.

Resolved,
That the draft Order entitled the New-haven (Sussex) Prohibitory Order, 1940, as settled by the Minister of Shipping under the Coast Protection Act, 1939, a copy of which was presented to this House on 8th October, be approved."—[Mr. Cross.]

GAS UNDERTAKINGS ACTS, 1920 TO 1934.

Resolved,
That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Horsham Gas Company, Limited, a copy of which was presented to this House on 8th October and published, be approved."—[Major Lloyd George.]

Resolved,
That the draft of a Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under the Gas Undertakings Acts, 1920 to 1934, on the application of the Sittingbourne District Gas Company which was presented to this House on 8th October and published be approved."—[Major Lloyd George.]

Notice taken, that strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Capt. Vyvyan Adams: On a point of Order. Are we not to proceed with the Adjournment Debate now?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There cannot be a point of Order. I have to put the Question at once.

Question put, and negatived.

JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]

Captain Vyvyan Adams: I am grateful for the kindness of whoever was responsible for not pressing that Motion just now. I fully understand that the incident may have been due to some misunderstanding and not merely to a Parliamentary trick. What happened after Questions to-day in this House commanded complete unanimity. With every word that fell from the four right hon. Gentleman who spoke about Mr. Neville Chamberlain every Member in this House agreed, but, as the Prime Minister said then, at the lych-gate we may all pass our own conduct under searching review, and I am asking, on this Adjournment Debate, a right hon. and gallant Gentleman whom I see opposite to look at his own works. What I am going to say will not, I know, command complete unity in this House. But my apology for raising this matter to-day is that this is my only opportunity; however unfavourable the psychological atmosphere may be, I feel quite unable to be silenced any longer by circumstance or official persuasion. As most of my time, or at any rate much of my time, is now consurned by other duties which seem to me as important as Parliamentary duties it may be that I can take a more objective view. I should like to say at this stage that I have found that the discipline which prevails in the Army has some reason underlying it, unlike the rigid Parliamentary discipline which has threatened for the last nine years, from time to time, to sterilise democracy. With your leave, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I am raising the question of the salary and position of somebody who has been regarded for too long as a kind of sacrosanct and inviolable figure—the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who is variously known in this House as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, the Chief Whip, the right hon. and gallant Member for Rugby (Captain Marges-

son), the Patronage Secretary, and most commonly, of course, as "the usual channel."
The last is a complete misnomer. In the House of Commons for years now to the ordinary Member who has tried to do his duty to Parliament, his country and his constituents he has been a block and a dam. In fact he has on many occasions succeeded in muzzling our Parliamentary freedom. I am one of those who believe now and have believed for a long time that stronger policies and wiser statesmanship applied years ago would have avoided this war and at the same time would have preserved freedom for Europe. Peace might have been preserved if the present Prime Minister had entered the Government as recently as April of last year. That is my opinion; but, in any event, unless we surrender to fatalism we must credit the policies which we formulate in this House or which the Government founds upon Parliamentary consent with some effect on events.
But year after year—I would like the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention; he need not try to sneer me into silence, although I suppose that he would say that he was physiologically incapable of sneering—for no less than nine years the Chief Whip has in two Parliaments driven huge majorities to support policies which have culminated in this catastrophe. It is a catastrophe from which we must emerge victorious or perish. We have to-day—and no thanks to the Chief Whip—a Prime Minister whose leadership electrifies the Empire. He is a guarantee of our perseverance and the symbol—the earnest of our coming victory. Yet the Chief Whip did all he could—and did it successfully—to exclude him from the Government until the war came, which the Prime Minister prophesied and which he might have prevented. He did all he could to preserve in high office—I wish the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would pay a little attention—

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson): I am listening to every word.

Captain Adams: Well, perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will not appear to be speaking to the Lord Privy Seal. As I was saying, the right hon.


and gallant Gentleman did all he could to preserve in high office others whose strength was failing and whose leadership was hesitant. Those of us who worked for years for a Churchill Government he chose to treat as a bad smell. In May the facade which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman thought so safe suddenly collapsed, and some of us who were serving far from Westminster sighed with relief. At last, we felt, this evil, unhappy tyranny was over. No longer would the criterion of great decisions be the convenience of the Chief Whip and his little knot of friends. Until last week I had not been in the House since July; I had been in a place where the London newspaper is unknown. Often we do not appreciate the value of something until we are deprived of it, and I assure my hon. Friends that that release was something of a mixed blessing. But I did expect to hear by post, or perhaps on the wireless, that the Chief Whip who had at last been exposed after nine long years as a huge political sham, had gone either to the Suez Canal or to the House of Lords.
I came back last week to find acres of the East End of London in ruins, as well as tracts of devastation in other parts of the Metropolis—magnificent memorials, we shall all agree, to the methods by which the Chief Whip and his friends have run our affairs for the last nine years. [Interruption]. I take the view that by wiser statemanship this war could have been avoided. Here we have the most powerful individual who has held continuous office over the last nine years, and I hope he is pleased to-day with St. James's, Piccadilly, St. Clement Danes and the Halls of the Inner and Middle Temple.

Mr. George Griffiths: And the Carlton Club.

Captain Adams: Yes, but I, too, have an interest in that institution. Most unfortunately, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is still there, whispering his counsels in the ear of the Prime Minister, and I suppose that he is still, as he has been over the last nine years, the fountain of honours. If anyone over the last nine years desired a title, it was necessary to approach the right hon. and gallant Gentleman on all fours. As I have been,

fortunately, not interested in these matters, I have been able to preserve a vertical posture, but I am bound to say that the presence still of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman at the centre of power seems to me to be a fact of cardinal constitutional indecency. As far as I know, he still draws £3,000 a year, and so does another better-loved functionary. I am not aware of any respect in which his duties lately have become so onerous that he needs anyone to help him. My summons to attend the House is still inscribed with the sinister words, "David Margesson."
When I see somebody requiring support for a Government whose coming into being he did his best to prevent, I rub my eyes. I cannot help asking whether the right hon. and gallant Gentlemen is immune from every semblance of decency. Can he never, I wonder, blush with shame? There is in this circumstance one consolation. It is that every revolt that I and others have made against him and his friends, every criticism and every protest we have uttered, are now shown to have been justified to the hilt. A man who can remain in high political office in these circumstances can only be described as a political hireling. He is shown to have had no right to utter a single rebuke against those of us who, from time to time, have caused him some trifling inconvenience. His vain expression is clearly shown to have had nothing behind it except expediency. Least of all should he have dared to compliment himself, as I have heard him do, upon the "leniency" with which he has treated rebellions.
It is an incredible thing that a man should acquire such a powerful position in this House that he seems to arrogate to himself the right to treat with "indulgence" or "leniency" the exercise of a Member's private right of judgment. This kind of sentiment, this kind of belief, this principle, is enough to make Edmund Burke turn in his grave. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman—many people say this privately, and I do not see why one should snarl in a corner and not say it publicly, for our whole principle of government is founded upon the freedom of expression of ordinary Members' opinions—the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has tried to convert this, the first assembly of the world, to which our constituents elect us to use


our own judgment, into a school with himself as the chief usher. I have no regrets for refusing to concur in or for opposing the policies which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has tried to order the House to support. I will enumerate some of them, and many hon. Members will agree—perhaps not with complete unanimity—that those policies are now exposed as catastrophic failures and mistakes. The acquiescence in the building of a German Navy, which we were not even allowed to debate, although we asked for a debate across the Floor of the House; the Hoare-Laval proposals, Spain, the pitiable attempts to neutralise Italy, slack rearmament, the appeasement of the Nazis, Austria, and finally—something which I dare to say in spite of what has been said to-day—the crowning dishonour of Munich. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman can be identified, as I have no doubt he thinks he can be, with Toryism, he has come near to making it identical with myopia and with cowardice. Never has the country or a great party suffered such injury from a single individual so powerful. And the power for evil is still there, sitting just by the Mace. Who can be certain that this prince of appeasement is bent on absolute victory? The only favour—I wish the right hon. and gallant Gentleman would heed my penultimate remarks—

Captain Margesson: I am listening to every word the hon. Member is saying.

Captain Adams: Perhaps the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will hold his peace until I have finished speaking. [Interruption.] If I have transgressed the canons of ordinary manners and proceeded beyond the rules of Parliamentary invective, I apologise, and withdraw. The only favour I have ever asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman—and he will bear me out in this—is that I should be allowed to speak, a favour which he has not always been able to grant me. [Interruption.] Mr. Speaker, clearly I do not wish to suggest any impugning of your authority, but it is certainly not to be denied that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has assisted you from time to time by placing in your hands a list of Government speakers. I am merely making this statement, and I hope it is a matter which is beyond the realms of controversy.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member must remember that who speaks is a matter which rests with my judgment. It depends upon who catches my eye.

Captain Adams: I am extremely sorry to have brought myself into conflict with you, Mr. Speaker. It is the last thing I intended to do, but I have yet to learn that you are absolutely beyond taking any guidance from important Members of the House. That is the only suggestion I made.

Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members know quite well that they themselves often come to me and inform me that they wish to speak. Beyond that I take no guidance from anybody.

Mr. A. Bevan: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Do we understand that the Whips never put in lists of speakers to the Chair? If that is so, every Member of the House would he astonished.

Mr. Speaker: I did not mean to suggest anything of the kind. Those who represent different parties in the House often come to me and say that So-and-so wishes to speak. I am very glad to have that advice, but I do not by any means always abide by it.

Captain Adams: That is perhaps why it is so difficult for hon. Members with very independent views to speak. I have seldom asked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for any kind of favour, but I ask him one to-day. To express it I will use a famous phrase which was lately used on a very dramatic occasion by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India, "In the name of God, go."

Mr. Quintin Hogg: As one who has not always been in favour with the Patronage Secretary, I should like to protest against what I regard as a very unjust and improper attack upon him. Although the hon. Member for West Leeds (Captain Adams) will no doubt deny the impeachment, it is really a deliberate and vicious attack upon the Prime Minister, who is responsible for the appointment.

Captain Adams: Will the hon. Member allow me to say that the Prime Minister has no more loyal supporter in the country than I am?

Mr. Hogg: As I understand it, if the Prime Minister wanted a different Patronage Secretary, he would advise the Crown accordingly. If he did so, as his follower I should be very glad to accept any change. Until he does so, I do not see how any loyal supporter of the Prime Minister is entitled to make an attack of this kind. It seems to me that much of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said against the Patronage Secretary is wholly unjust. I do not want to say too much about the various times on which the hon. and gallant Member has satisfied himself that he was right and the majority of the House was wrong. All I want to say is that it is quite plain now that, about the foreign policy of the months preceding the war, three propositions can truly be made. The first is that those who thought that foreign policy was wrong still think it is wrong. Secondly, those who thought it was right still think it is right. Thirdly, if we are going to quarrel about whether it is right or wrong, we are not getting on with the winning of the war. The Prime Minister's continued reliance upon the Patronage Secretary is due to the fact that he recognises the last proposition as clearly as anybody else, and that he desires to prevent vicious internecine strife of the kind which the hon. and gallant Member has given rise to on the present occasion.
I do not share the resentment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman at being "whipped." Obviously, some party discipline is necessary to Parliamentary government. Obviously, it must be necessary to prevent hon. Members who are possibly more interested in their own views than in those of other people, or possibly only eccentric, from indulging in completely disorderly behaviour. For that purpose it seems to me that the existence of Whips is a very good thing. I have often been in trouble with the Whips. I do not in the least resent that. It is an excellent thing that people should have to go through a little persecution if they want to show independence of mind. It keeps them fresh. It is most unfortunate that an attack should he made against somebody who is essentially in the position of a lieutenant and not of a leader, a person whose business it is to put into effect the disciplinary machinery of Parliament and not to initiate policy. It seems to me that the Patronage Secretary has the friendship of most of us and

the respect of most of us, and personally, as one who is not at all a regular or respectable servant of the Whips, I very much resent that my right hon. and gallant Friend should have been made the victim of a personal attack.

Lieut.-Commander Gurney Braithwaite: May I express my pleasure on hearing, after a long interval, the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds (Captain V. Adams)? It is some time since he and I attended a Debate together, and I welcome the fact that apparently Saul has not only taken the road to Damascus, but has donned the King's uniform in the process. The hon. and gallant Member takes the rather extraordinary view that not only has the Patronage Secretary been responsible for exercising discipline—whether it has been too severe or not is a matter of opinion—but also that he has been responsible for formulating high policy, particularly in regard to the conduct of foreign affairs. Unless I misunderstood the hon. and gallant Member, the Patronage Secretary was responsible for the Hoare-Laval negotiations.

Captain Adams: I only said that he required support from this House for these policies. I did not say he inaugurated them.

Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: As Chief Whip of the Government he was responsible for the agreement in endeavouring to persuade Government supporters to vote for the Government which they were elected to support. I do not think that justifies his exile to the Suez Canal or any other place.

Captain Adams: rose—

Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I listened without interrupting the hon. and gallant Member, and under some provocation. As I promised to detain the House for only some three minutes, I wonder if he would be good enough to allow me to address myself to one particular section of the speech he has just made. He said that he hoped the Patronage Secretary was pleased with the devastation of the capital in the East End and in other places. But is that quite fair for one who for years has pleaded on the Floor of this House for disarmament and who has opposed the present Prime Minister when he sat below the Gangway as an independent private


Member. I remember a Debate on the Adjournment which took place as long ago as 1932—

Captain Adams: The hon. Member has to go a long way back. That was before the Nazis came into power in Germany.

Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I am afraid that military training has caused the hon. and gallant Member to think that the parade ground allows only one voice to be heard; but the hon. and gallant Member has not been long enough in the Army to appreciate discipline himself. I remember very well the Adjournment Debate in 1932, when the present Prime Minister gave voice to some extremely sceptical remarks regarding the probable successful outcome of the Disarmament Conference then sitting under the chairmanship of Mr. Arthur Henderson. I remember the hon. and gallant Member getting up in the greatest indignation at the suggestion of a modest programme of naval replace-merits being carried out. I believe it is on record that once in his own constituency he was responsible for the statement that there would be no prospect of peace until the Royal Navy had been towed out into the Atlantic and sunk.

Captain Adams: The hon. Member can rest assured that there is no foundation for that statement.

Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: I am very glad to know that; but, at least, he will admit making speeches in this House advocating a reduction of armaments.

Captain Adams: Certainly, provided it was general.

Lieut.-Commander Braithwaite: It may have been an error into which all of us have fallen; I certainly did not. I took the line in that Debate, and in other Debates, in support of the present Prime Minister for a programme of naval reconstruction. It ill becomes one who adopted pacifism during those years to accuse a right hon. Gentleman or any other Member in this House of responsibility for that devastation. I hope the hon. and gallant Member will have the decency when he has read his speech to realise that that is an unfair attack on every Member of this House who from whatever angle sought to preserve peace and avoid this conflict.
The Patronage Secretary has had cause before now to see my name in Division lists in opposition to the late Government. There was one long and prolonged controversy, which is dead now, over betting and lotteries, when some of us kept the House up all night on more than one occasion, believing the Bill to be a bad one. The right hon and gallant Gentleman may have been pained by the action I took, but I have never had one word of rebuke, never a single threat, and I have never been subjected to political tyranny of any kind in consequence. Finally, I would say that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman sits in his present position with the full confidence of the great national leader, our present Prime Minister, who has placed him in that position, under whom we all intend to march to victory, whatever may befall.

Mr. Wedgwood: The House of Commons never shows itself to worse advantage than when it indulges in personal recriminations. I do not think that this is a question that should have been brought before the House. My feeling is that all Chief Whips are bad. I think that the discipline they apply is unnecessary and undesirable and should be reduced. The present Chief Whip has been a more efficient Chief Whip than those in the past. That, I think, is unfortunate. In the past, most Chief Whips have remained in their office, but the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has spent his time on the Front Bench, and everyone knows that he is there; they see him there and fear him. I think it is a disadvantage when a Chief Whip takes such an active interest in the conduct of Debates. It is inevitable that he should use some disciplinary action against people who vote against the party. I have suffered from that on my side. Normally the method is to get the Member into your office and complain to him, and tell him that he will have trouble from his constituency. That is the proper pressure that should be applied. What has become new with the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is his influence in debate itself. I think that might very well be diminished without any drawback to our Parliamentary institutions.

Captain Margesson: Would the right hon. Gentleman elaborate that? I do not quite follow him in my "influence in


debate." How do I influence the course of debates? I do not follow that argument at all.

Mr. Wedgwood: It applies to the names of speakers. It has the effect of arousing suspicion in the minds of Members, and it is inevitable that that suspicion should be there. I am quite willing to believe that the Chief Whip, in giving in his list, does not seek to make it exclusive but that he simply puts in the names of those who have approached him. If that is so, people who are not in his good books feel that they cannot go to him to have their names put in.
That makes it extremely difficult for a rebel, who can be disciplined in other ways, to get an opportunity to speak. That seems to me to be a slightly new thing in the last 10 years. I would ask the Chief Whip, for whom I have the highest respect, whether it is not desirable that we should have a freer method of being able to speak, whether the names put before the Speaker might not be either everyone who applies for permission to speak or else none?

Mr. Bevan: On a point of Order. Though it was perhaps desirable that things should be said in public which had been whispered so much, nevertheless I should like to ask in what capacity we are discussing the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. We are entitled to discuss him as Parliamentary Secretary, but I am not quite certain to what extent we are entitled to discuss him as a Whip. The matter is raised upon the Adjournment because the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's salary is paid by the House. Are we entitled to discuss his conduct as a Whip? In my submission, if they want to discuss his conduct as a Whip, hon. Members opposite should adjourn to the Carlton Club and have a real row. It seems to me rather unseemly to be discussing the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's conduct as Whip, which is a private party position and is not necessarily a part of the Parliamentary Secretary's work.

Mr. Speaker: It seems to me that the only way we can discuss a Chief Whip is as a Whip. We cannot discuss him as anything else.

Mr. Bevan: We have not appointed the right hon. Gentleman as a Whip at all, but we have agreed to his appointment as

Parliamentary Secretary. The functions of a Whip are duties allotted to him outside the purview of the House, and it is not a matter for which we ought to be held responsible. It really alarms me that I am to be responsible for his misconduct for all these years. I thought his conduct as a Whip was a matter for the Conservative party and not for the House. It is putting a gross disability on the House and shouldering on us his years of misconduct.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): I think the House would be very well advised not to pursue the matter further. I think the hon. and gallant Member's speech was intemperate, and it dealt with matters of the past, and with matters of controversy, which it is inadvisable to raise again at the present time. I speak in a detached way with regard to the past. I was constantly in contact with my right hon. Friend as Chief Whip of the Conservative party when I was Leader of the Opposition, and I should like to put it on record that I had unfailing courtesy from him, and in the manner in which he performed his functions during those years, when there was only a very small Opposition and the Parliamentary system was really in danger, showed a very great respect for our Constitution. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), I think, put a very good point, because he recognises, as we all do, that any Chief Whip has dual functions. He is at once a Government functionary, and he is also a Chief Whip in regard to a particular political party. But I think the hon. Member was right. This is not the place to raise it.
The question between the hon. and gallant Member who raised the matter and the Chief Whip is one which, in my view, should be thrashed out at a party meeting. The Government are responsible for policy. Whips are responsible for carrying out that policy, and whatever charges are made with regard to policy should be made against those who have to take that responsibility and not against anyone who is carrying it out. On the other hand, our Constitution is a difficult one, and there are, and should be, occasions on which in political parties those who are considered to have been exceeding their powers can be brought to book, but it would be very ill-advised on my part to


enter into considerations of the domestic affairs of another party. I think it is profoundly right, as has been said, that it is not a very good thing to have these personal quarrels fought out on the Floor of the House, and particularly at this time, when they are raising issues which are past and when we should be bending our minds to the future. It has been suggested that, because to-day the chief parties in the House are supporting the Government, therefore the Government have a more absolute power over the House of Commons. That is not my experience. In my experience the most absolute power of Whips is when there is a close struggle in the House. When the ordinary party strife is absent it is far more difficult to bring pressure to bear on the members of a particular party. I have noticed, and welcomed, a growing independence in the House ever since this Government was formed, and free criticism from all sides. The fact is that, if the Government want to get anything through, they have to be very careful on all sides to carry the House with them. That is all to the good, and I hope it will continue.

Mr. Leach: We have listened to a highly interesting account from the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds (Captain V. Adams) of a grievance that he feels, but his speech was rather lacking in evidence as to the sine of the right hon. Gentleman whom he attacks. Nevertheless, we have seen a picture of the Chief Whip which seems to have surprised most of those present. It certainly very much surprised me. I gathered, in the first instance, that he is greater than the Prime Minister because he imposes his will on successive Prime Ministers without let or hindrance. I gather that he is even greater than the Cabinet because the same thing applies there; whatever the Chief Whip desires, shall be done as the Cabinet is his faithful servant. If this is a true picture of the Chief Whip, we have a very marvellous gentleman in this House. I am not at all sure that the capacity which the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds attributes to the Chief Whip does not fit him par excellence to be Chief Whip still.

Mr. Magnay: I want to recall the House to a sense of dignity. On such a day as this and on such an occasion as we have had to-day we ought not to

have had this ill-advised intervention on what ought to be the business of the Conservative party and not of the House of Commons at all. If there is any dirty linen to be washed, let it be done in the proper place. We of the Liberal National party and the other Liberal party have nothing to do with this matter. We might copy the example shown on more than one occasion by the Socialist party, who, when they have had to bring members to book, have met in private and ejected them with bell, book and candle. What will the country and the Dominions think when they know that we have discussed a matter like this? Tragedy should purge even the divisions of party strife, and we ought to have a sense of decorum and decency. I do not say that the Chief Whip has done everything he should do. I have never met a man who has, and I do not expect to see angels just yet. Why my hon. and gallant Friend should choose such a day as this to raise such a matter is beyond me. The country will regret exceedingly that we have had no more sense of dignity at such a time than to rake up a thing which has happened for nine years. That should be discussed on another occasion and not in these tragic times, when we have something better to do. I appeal to the House to treat the matter with the disdain that it deserves.

Captain Adams: May I, on a point of personal explanation, say that, unlike the hon. Gentleman, I cannot sit continuously in this House? I said that I regretted raising this matter, because this was the only opportunity I had.

Mr. Bellenger: The hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Magnay) has asked the House to dismiss this matter and to have a sense of dignity. I prefer to have a sense of reality, and I would say to the House and to my right hon. Friend, whose advice I am prepared to accept, that this smouldering discontent which has been voiced to-day has also been in existence in the Labour party, but, fortunately, we are not prepared to absolve members of the Tory party as a body from actions which they have taken in the past and placed on the shoulders of the Patronage Secretary. My hon. Friends and my right hon. Friend himself will agree with many of the things that the hon. Member has said about the past. I would only say in


that respect that if we had held our tongues when we were dissatisfied in the past, my right hon. Friend would not be sitting in the seats of the Government to-day. With regard to the calling of speakers, I have never approached my party whip to put my name in front of the Chair. I have gone direct to the Chair, and as an individual Member of the House and as one who has some sense of dignity about my own independence in this House, although I am a member of a party, I have always had fair treatment from the Chair. So has the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds (Captain V. Adams) judging from the number of occasions on which he has spoken.
The matter which I view with disquiet is not the discipline of any Chief Whip, because any hon. Member, if he has independence, can deal with his Chief Whip, but the interference by the party machine with hon. Members in their own constituencies if they do not voice the point of view which happens to be that of the party caucus. I would not tolerate that, and I hope that the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds would not. I have a high regard for his independent point of view, with which I have agreed on many occasions when he spoke for disarmament, but for a long time I did not support him because I was a realist. I can accept my right hon. Friend's advice to-day, because I am a realist, but let him understand as I think he does, that there must always be independence among hon. Members, particularly in

relation to their own constituencies. If there is any complaint against the Chief Whip to-day it is that he interferes in the constituencies when hon. Members have not always spoken in the same language as he has.

Mr. Charles Williams: With regard to the last remark of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), I would say that if you want to be certain as a Conservative Member to keep your seat, let the Chief Whip interfere in your constituency. You can then get a life-long seat. In the Press and among people of ill will, they are always saying that the Chief Whip has interfered in a constituency. I have known it only on one or two occasions, but whenever it has happened the Member gets back in an infinitely stronger position than before.

Mr. Attlee: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, "That this House do now adjourn," by leave, withdrawn.

SECRET SESSION.

Notice taken, that strangers were present.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]